Finding the Courage to Work on Ourselves as Coaches with Lyssa deHart

Hello, my name is Tracy Sinclair. Welcome to Coaching in Conversation. Coaching In Conversation is a chance to discuss and explore, not just how we can keep developing and ensuring as coach practitioners, but also to consider how coaching is evolving and its future potential in place as a powerful vehicle or human development in today's and tomorrow's world. I'll be sharing some of my own thoughts on these topics. And we will also hear from some great guests from around the world who bring their unique experience and perspectives. In this episode, I am joined by a great colleague and peer, Lyssa DeHart. Lyssa is a Master Certified Coach with the International Coaching Federation. And she is also the author of Story Jacking, Change Your Dialogue, Transform Your Life, and The Reflective Coach. Lisa is a leadership confidence coach and whole life coach. She's also a certified ICF mentor coach, a coaching supervision partner, an ICF PCC assessor, and a coaching educator. She uses her understanding of the ICF Core Competencies combined with her knowledge of neuroscience to work with professional coaches to expand their capacity to partner with their clients in how they show up and hold the space for those with whom they work. Lyssa is the creator of the Power of Metaphor Certification Program. This gives coaches new ways to tune their ears, to hear the powerful metaphors that their clients bring forward, as well as discovering how to leverage the important metaphors to create stronger agreements, build trust and safety, allow the client to lead and ultimately evoke powerful, embodied awareness. Lyssa also works with creative executives and leaders who are ready to move their goals forward. To shift mindsets and get unstuck. Her clients develop powerful embodied goals and together they get curious about what stands between where her clients are and where they want to be. Using a creative human solutions focused framework, she supports people to get results. What really fires her up is working with smart, creative people to trust their brilliance and develop the courage and the confidence to believe in themselves and the goals that are important to them. Quite a bit of my conversation with Lyssa also revolved around ourselves as an instrument of our work, and so this episode is called Finding the Courage to Work on Ourselves as Coaches. I hope you enjoy. Well, Lyssa, I am so excited to have this conversation. I know we were just talking before we started the recording here that it's been a few months actually since we last spoke, and I've been really looking forward to, to reconnecting with you. So thank you so much for agreeing to come and have this conversation with me. Well, I've been very much looking forward to it also, and I think what we, January it's crazy. Time has gone by so quickly. It certainly is. It certainly is. Well, I, I know we we could go to many different places in our conversation, but just to, just to start us off, what I'd love to hear, I guess, is a little bit about your history in terms of, you know, why coaching at, at some point, I'm guessing in your life, in your career, coaching became part of your pathway and why coaching compared to probably many other pathways that you could have followed. What was important about that for you? So it was sort of an interesting thing, you know, I mean, I think people have these moments in their life where they're at a I don't know, at a fulcrum of the, the moment in their life where they have an option to go this way or that way, and that, that came to me. I'd been a practicing clinical social worker since 19. Well, I'd been a social worker since 1992 when I started my graduate program and I started working towards my master's in social work. And what I found I was doing a lot of in the work that I started doing was a lot of solution focus, goal-oriented, short-term interventions with people to get them off often just out of trouble. I was working for the state and then I was working for the Air Force in the United States. And so that was sort of the beginning of the work that I was doing. And I had an opportunity for one of these full poems of decision making. Left or right, this way, that way, and that took me into my own private practice. And so I con started to develop my private practice. I was doing a lot of PTSD work, working with complex trauma dissociative disorders. And so I was really understanding the brain and very, very specialized ways because trauma impacts the brain in very, very specialized ways. And as I started to really develop this understanding of how minds worked. I fell in love with not just the idea of neuroscience, but really just exploring it because I felt so, so deeply that it was important for us to really develop an understanding of the person that was sitting in front of us and also how do you help and support people to move through and passed and on from a horrible, you know, trauma that they may have experienced in their life or that they did experience in their life. And so another one of these pivot points in my life came when my husband had an opportunity for us to move from where we were in New Mexico, up to the Washington State area, and I had to shut down my practice. And it, I had taken in 2008, I had taken my original coach training. And so I'd been doing some coaching in my practice also, but, I was at this pivot point and I was like, what do I do? And at that point it became very clear that I didn't wanna throw the baby out with a bath water, so to speak. But I really, 20 years of working in trauma was very much enough for me. And so I wanted to really work on how do we move past that? And that was where coaching seemed like it might be a really good fit for me. And so I was like, you know, I mean, I know I took my coach training in 2008 and the truth was that original 60- 65 hours did not prepare me to understand the competencies, be able to really have a sense of the questions I was asking and how they fit with the competencies. And so I was just having these conversations that had a bit of a goal at the end of them and a bit of agreement setting at the beginning, but were kind of meandering and I didn't really know what I was doing and I didn't necessarily feel confident in my coaching ability. So at that point I decided, you know what? I think if I'm gonna really do this, I probably need to really dive into this a bit deeper and get a lot more training. So that started in 2014 after we had moved up here and I got settled and I just sort of like, okay, I'm gonna figure this coaching thing out now. Hmm. To make that transition. Wow. That's an interesting sort of origins, isn't it, to how, how you've got here and I know. From a previous conversation that we've had, how there are a couple of parallels in that my transition into coaching also came from perhaps a more therapeutic setting because I used to work as a, an addiction counselor with drug and alcohol addict. So, you know, I guess both of us have sensed that there is a place within that context for still forward movement, goal setting to encourage people through recovery to aspirational goals, you know, and, and move out of the therapeutic context. What I'm interested in then in ex in, in finding out more of your thoughts about are. I guess, how can I put this without sounding too negative? The, the world's in a bit of a tricky place at the moment, right? Is that a British understatement? I dunno. But yeah, we're in a bit of a pickle as the British might say. And you know, on a serious note, there are really some quite significant challenges in various levels around the world, whether it's social conflict, social tension challenges around equity and diversity and inclusion, war climate, economic challenges. I mean, the list, the pandemic, forgot about that one. You know, the list goes on and on, doesn't it? So in some ways, are we facing a situation where some of that therapeutic context is actually coming more into our day-to-day lives in organizations? And what are your thoughts on that in terms of the role that coaching could play to support society where we are right now? Well, I think what you're talking, I mean, yes. And there are just so many, there are so many things that we can put our attention on that are in a pickle to use the language. Right. And, so I know for myself, I can't focus on every single one of those things, but because it's just overwhelming the amount of challenges that seem to be abounding around us. And I think there really is a role in coaching if I am trying to think of the best way to really sort of expand on this, but I mean, I think the role of coaching has an opportunity to really help people to, instead of be scattered across every possible thing they could be focusing their attention on to really the one or two things that might be the place where they could really have the most impact. And I think that's one of the things that I love about coaching. I mean, it's something that happens just in agreement setting, right? The client comes and they've got this litany of things that are coming up for them, and we're not gonna have a conversation about every single one of those things. We're gonna ask, what is the underlying theme that's may maybe most important to you specifically? And I think it's the same thing with coaching on a broader scale is when we're working with people. Whether they're in an an organization or they're an individual, because even people in organizations are also individuals and the things that are showing up for them are not just organizational or life, they're their whole people. And so all of these things are impacting us on multiple levels. What is the one thing or two things you most wanna focus on? And sometimes it's just like, how do I, how do I survive where I'm at and not create any more damage around the world or whatever as much as possible? Or how do I really focus on really putting my energy and attention on one or two things that are really meaningful for me? And I think that that's where coaching conversations really shine, which is they, they're this, this opportunity for a person to hear what's really important to them. And it's interesting, I was talking to one of my mentor coaching clients and she said, you know, after our last conversation, one of the things that just really showed up for me is every time people are talking in a coaching conversation, they're really talking to themselves. And when we start to think about our conversations with our clients, in the rough frame of reference of that client is actually talking to themselves. I don't need to interject my own stuff into their stuff, but how do I amplify their capacity to hear themselves? Once we start hearing ourselves, then we can start to look at where we have competing beliefs, where we maybe have, you know you know, the, you hear. Like tensions of presence that Janet Harvey talks about, or you've got the, you know, Lakey and I can't remember their names right now, but that kind of idea of these competing commitments, right? Yeah. That, that show up for people. And when you start to explore and uncover these sorts of things that are just natural in the human condition, what it does is it allows people to start to become more critical of their own thinking process. And I think that that's where coaching really is, supports people then to have more of that self-awareness. Oh, like I'm holding these two different beliefs together and they don't even. Agree with each other. Like, I'm hold the, I'm holding these two things and they don't work. Yeah. So what's going on there? Which of them is really more important to you? What's important about that? Where do they connect and where do they disconnect and how are they, how is this competing commitment impacting how you show up in the world? And you can get there through a therapeutic conversation? But honestly, I think the problem with therapy is therapy comes with a lot of baggage for a lot of people. And it is perfect for people who have severe, like mental illnesses and they really need that container of support to help them get from. Wounded to, you know, able to make other choices and to be internally resourced. Right? But coaching is, is so focused on where and where would you be going? What would the experience be that you're having if you are to get over this hump or through this muddle that you find yourself in right now? Where are we going? And it's because of that sort of focus into that experience that the person wants to have. It gives us this opportunity then to explore all the things that are in the way of being in that different state of mind. And I think it's changing these mindsets and these states of mind that are just, you know, I don't know, it's kind of the chicken and the egg thing. I don't know which came first, but, but whatever triggers fear for people, impacts their capacity to be creative and think through. In a thoughtful, self explorative way when they are feeling threatened or fearful. And I think what we see in the world is a lot of people feel very threatened and fearful, and, and I think coaching can say, yes, you're feeling threatened and fearful right now. What would you be if, if you were moving towards a state that you would prefer to be in? Yeah, yeah. Gosh, there's the, my mind is worrying because there's so much there listening what you just shared. And I'm, and I'm just thinking, you know, you, you used the word creativity there a moment ago, and I want to pick up on that in a second with you, but there's something else that you was coming up for me as you were talking. There was, you know, you mentioned the word overwhelm, you mentioned. You know, how can we focus on the one thing that we could, we could take control of? You know, how could we think about how I get through today rather than the next three years? And we, we know that some of these, these changes to how we can navigate, have come in through some of, you know, I guess initiated by the pandemic. But some of these are the challenges that we know that leaders don't feel so confident and equipped to strategize and, and make, you know, three year strategy plans because everything is changing so quickly. Right, right. And, and I guess what was coming up for me, as you were just describing that was, was the term of psychological safety. That, which I know from a therapeutic context of course is paramount, but equally in coaching, isn't it? To, to create the conditions, I guess, as coaches. For people to feel comfortable to, to do that work to join the dots up, to feel like they're in, back in control of their day or back in control of their thinking to try to mitigate that overwhelm. What, what, you know, if you were giving some, some guidance, you know, I guess as coaches we don't try to give advice, but if you were going to offer your perspective to younger coaches coming into the field who perhaps sometimes feel that they've got to do a lot to add value to clients mm-hmm, they've got to offer a lot to add value. What would your, what would your perspective be on how can we best serve people right now? Well, a couple thoughts have come up and the first one is, you know, where can we be in control? And it, it and, and that is that sort of, that locus of control. Honestly, I don't have control over anything external. I don't even have con, I mean, I have control over my dogs right now because I put them in a kennel, but I don't have control over whether or not they like it. Right? Like they could be in there, very disappointed that they're not able to run through my office, barking their heads off. I, so I can, there are certain things that are within my wheelhouse of control, and then there are other things that just aren't. And I think a lot of what happens where people are disrupted or dis dissatisfied is the, the focuses on the things that we can't control, right? And so as coaches, I think one of the things that happens is a client comes to you and they're like, I hate my job. I hate my boss. I hate blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, whatever that is that they're not happy about. And the coach goes into this sort of, let's find a solution to this. How could you talk to your boss? How could you talk to your team? How could you know? What do you think your boss would say? Reminding us all that the boss is not actually in the room. Right. And we don't have any control over the boss's reaction or the team's reaction or the coworkers or peers or whatever. So there's this need to really kind of circle back to the locus of control that we do have, which is this internal locus of control. And all I can do is adjust my relationship to the situations that I'm finding myself in. And I think often coaches get lost in the weeds, so to speak, with their clients because they're trying to solve for a, a literal problem versus the internal problem where the client actually has a hundred percent control. I can choose whether or not I'm okay that the dogs are upset with me, or I can choose that, you know, I'll let them out, right? Like I can make those kinds of choices. But what I can't do again is I can't make them like or dislike something. I can only control what is in within my sphere of influence. And you know, this kind of goes into some of the, like in a popularized way into some of Cubby's work where he is looking at Yeah. You know, circles of influence and circles of concern and, you know, for coaches to understand that is a, a wonderful guide to where you can then actually ask questions that lead the client internally. And I do have a sense, you know, we use this language of, you know, coach was leading the client and I think that. Anytime we ask a question, we're leading somebody somewhere because we, we have control with the questions that we ask. And so if we're gonna lead them somewhere, lead them somewhere that they have an awareness, right? That it's coming from inside of them, lead them somewhere you don't know the answer to, because that's where they're going to have their big ahas. And so that's one part of it. I think there's another part too, which is, and, and there's some really interesting work with SIS and Western Case University and the whole positive emotional attract and negative emotional attract. And that idea that that, and, and I don't know that this is in his work, but this is what I think is I, that I've taken in some ways from it too, which is we know that internally we're all, most people are pretty self-critical, right? We mo most of us can find a way to kind of. Speed ourselves down. So if you have a coach who's leading you towards all these negative things versus asking you where you'd like to be going, instead it's gonna trigger all of those kind of internal narratives, right? Which is where the idea like you had mentioned like the idea of story jacking. You know, how do we start to change the story, change the narrative so that we are moving towards something more useful? Because we know the mind makes up stories to fill in gaps. Right. So if you're gonna make up stories to fill in gaps, is that story useful for you or not? And that's the place where a coach from this external position that's listening is this thought partner. They're not attached to the outcome. They're not gonna live with it. So they can sit in a place of neutrality and just be curious with a client about the the story or the narrative, or the languaging that the client what is. And that's the reason why in coaching, when you look at the competencies, we're asking what words mean rather than assuming we understand meaning. Because some client might use the word, you know, integrity and my idea of integrity and their idea of integrity may be different. And so by asking what they mean by integrity, if they bring up the word, then it's allowing them to actually hear themselves speak. Right. And, and, and anchoring that. And I think I may have lost the other part of the question, but I, you know, I, I definitely think that I'm gonna stop talking right now. well, something that you said, and I wrote something down myself because it resonates literally, just coincidentally today, you said about, you know, the locus of control and, and going within, rather than trying to control what's outside of that domain. And I saw a quote just, you know, coincidentally today on the internet that I wrote down, and it, it said, go within or go without. So, you know, that's quite interesting, isn't it? Of, and that really, really fits with where some of my own work is and thinking is going at the moment is Yeah. Is that first look within idea, isn't it? You know? And and, and it, it's interesting, isn't it? How sometimes when we feel threatened, We don't do that. We, we keep trying to look at how we can control the environment or our context, and that's often really not possible. And then a lot of our energy is spent you know, in that way, right, it's really that definition of insanity, right? I mean, if, if you keep doing the same thing over and over again, you are not gonna get a different response and you're gonna continue to get the same response. And my focus on external things, you know, and, and I'll just use a big topic that is super dear to my heart, which is the environment, because I kind of think it's important that we can all breathe clean air, have clean water, have healthy food, have an environment that supports life because we require life in order to live. Yeah. And so this is a big topic for me that I think is really, really important. It's one of the places where I focus my attention because I think it. Touches everybody on the planet also, and. I don't have any control over the Supreme Court in America over, you know, over Congress and America specifically, or over the emissions of organ companies or the, you know, the lack of follow through or taking away the EPAs rights are not being part of the global, you know, environmental movement. Like, I don't have any control over that. What I do have control over is where I send my money. I have control over whether or not I choose to recycle. I if I use less, if I do make less trash, if I do more composting, like those are the things that I have control over. So if I focus on the big picture, I'm, I'm far outta my depth. And I think, you know, I, I love sort of the, the principles of Buddhism in this particular regard. You know, we suffer because we want what we cannot have. And so the antidote to suffering is to stop wanting what? You cannot have , like have like started doing something with what you do have. Yeah. Like do something within the place that you're planted and, and try and do the most beneficial things in that space that you can. And so from a coaching perspective, trying to get the client to change their boss is akin to asking them to hit their head against the wall over and over and over again. They're, they're not probably ever going to be completely successful with that. Nor satisfied. Yeah. Right. But changing their relationship to their. Relationship with their boss, right? And thinking, what do I have to learn here? What's important? What is this telling me about my boundaries? How I'm letting people cross my boundaries? How I'm crossing my own boundaries. How I need to maybe create healthier choices for myself? How am I discerning choices? Why am I choosing to stay versus choosing to leave? If I understand that I'm staying because there's a valid reason for me being here, for my own family's benefit, for my personal benefit, for my, you know, career benefit, then I can maybe tolerate something because I understand why I am choosing to be in this space that I find myself versus I'm gonna try and change everybody on my team and make them do stuff different and make my boss different, and make all my peers be different and try and change the world from this place of, of. Of one, which, which really shrinks your circle of influence also, because I don't know about you, but anybody who tells me what to do all the time, I don't like to spend time with them. Yeah. And so encouraging our clients to become those people is not useful to the world or being that person as a coach. Let me tell you what you need to do in order to solve your problem. Absolutely. Right. And, you know, so we, we've spoken a little bit here about how coaching is then very valuable in our current context, in our current environment that we're we're experiencing in the world at the moment. And, and I know that, you know, back in 2020 there were conversations around, is this pandemic as was the big thing then you know, is this going to, to, to crush coaching in a way, you know, is that going to challenge the profession because people. Just, you know, budgets are cut so everyone's just, you know, all hands to the deck trying to cope with getting through the day. And there were some fears about the profession, perhaps shrinking, you know? Mm-hmm. and, and some concerns from coaches that they may lose their, their income, et cetera. And yet, in fact, although there was an initial sort of hit when, when the whole thing really blew up from what I'm noticing on several levels, anecdotal and through some, some stats and things as well, if anything, coaching is flourishing more through this situation where it's almost, and I'm, I'm just really mindful of, of the thing that someone said at a conference once that really hooked me into being interested in coaching was where he said that he felt that coaching had been created, you know, or, or had emerged to meet a need in the world. And it's, it's kind of almost like, well, it's happening, you know? So, Coaching is continuing to evolve and change. Mm-hmm, it's a relatively new and young profession. What is, where do you think it's heading, you know, in terms of, we have a current paradigm of how professional coaching is offered. Where do you see that evolving and, and what could coaching become in terms of its contribution, I guess, to the bigger picture, if we go to that bigger picture for a minute, to society, to the human, race to our environment. What, what's possible here? Big question. Very big question. I think I'll start at the end and maybe move backwards a little bit, but. What is its contribution? I think that there is a multiplying impact that happens when people are doing good work with other people. And you think about how many people do, and, and this is to the audience, this is to you, this is to every coach out there. How many people do you really have in your life who are really deeply listening to you, who are really on your side, but have zero attachment to your outcome? I don't know very many people and in my life, because, I mean, my husband's wonderful. He, we can talk about anything, but if I said to him, Hey, you know, I've decided I wanna just, like, I'm just gonna move to Europe on my own and you know, do my own thing for a while, he's gonna have, like, he'll talk through it, but he's gonna have a bias towards an outcome, right? Who He can't help it because we're in a relationship and so often people don't have that, that. Outside, non-attached perspective. And so I think it's really important that people have that opportunity to bounce ideas off of somebody who's not attached. And by doing that critical thinking goes up our capacity to, to start to look at our life in a bigger way. How we show up with people, how we're making choices and decisions for our lives that are not reactive, but rather they're proactive because we're, we're giving space and time to be curious with the stimulus and the response, not just reacting to the, the events going on around us. So I think that it has a lot to support people moving forward and has a great impact. I think the other thing, to your point earlier, you know, the pandemic hits and everybody's scared, they're gonna like not have enough money and we're gonna all, like all coaching will end. I, I think it's that sort of. I don't know. The, the, the fear. The fear that, that, that we all go through. Anytime there's a big upheaval, right? Mm-hmm. And whatever the upheaval is, it's like very few people go, I'm, I'm embracing this upheaval with great, you know, Understanding and compassion and empathy for myself through this experience and for empathy for you as we go through this experience. Most of us are running around with our hair on fire, right? And so we have to do a lot of, I'm okay. I'm okay, I'm okay, I'm okay. Until we, we give ourselves a little bit of space to start to breathe again. And I think, you know, I think the same is true for pretty much everybody in the pandemic. Yeah, on the other hand, I also think there's probably some industries that were hit so hard that they may not bounce back. So coaching has been, but because of what coaching offers, I think that it will always be relevant on some level. And, you know, one of the things that I see in the future, and I've heard people talking about is this idea of AI and how they're gonna have an, you know, AI that can just be the coach. And the thing about that is, if you are a coach who asks those 100 best questions, cuz you got the book on Amazon and you've got the best questions that you can ask, and you go through that diagram of how to ask a question and those are the questions that you ask. Honestly, AI may take your job, right, because a computer can be programmed to ask those questions. Absolutely. What a computer has not yet been able to do is actually be present with another human being to listen to the words in such a way that, that it ask a, that they can then ask a relevant question that invites the client to have a, a self-awareness. Because the computer is just ones and zeros. They're not, it's not looking for nuance. It isn't able to experience the feeling of empathy and to go, you know, I'm noticing as you're talking that my neck is getting kind of tight. I don't know if that has any relevance for you and you say, No or yes, but we are now having a conversation about something more than the 100 questions that were in that book. Not that there's anything wrong with having a list of questions. I, I take nothing away from that because that's how we learn yet, when do we put the book away and when do we really show up as in presence with another human being? And frankly, I don't think that's ever gonna go away because that's been important since the moment human beings became in any way tribal. Whether it was, whatever your belief system was, whether we were early apes, or whether it was as human beings, I don't care. But the fact is, as soon as we needed more than one human being in order to live, we needed to learn how to be in presence with another human being. And that hasn't changed because our brain has not changed in about 10,000 years. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that, you know, in some ways we are coming back to this idea of the conditions again, aren't we? And the psychological safety, the presence, you know, it's so, it, it's, so, it's not just about clever questions. It's not just about what we do as coaches. It's how we are being that sense of presence and the energy that, that is conveyed. When two, when two human beings come together, and if anything I dunno about you, Lyssa, but what I'm finding in, in the work that I'm doing is it's often just that presence that is the difference that makes the difference. It's not all of the clever questions, even though obviously they're very thought provoking. But sometimes we only need to just sit and be with someone mm-hmm. Without really doing very much at all. And yet that is what they need. That is the value that's being added. Yeah. Because again, how many people do you have who you can sit in conversation with who don't have an investment in your outcome? Yeah. And so for coaches to go, I'm invested in your outcome. I want you to be successful, all they're doing is becoming like everybody else that that person talks to. Yeah. Putting pressure on them to be successful. Which may or may not be ultimately useful for long-term sustainable changes. Yeah. And you know, you brought up safety again, and, and that's the piece that I had forgotten earlier when I was talking so much. And, and I mean the psychological safety needs of an individual. And, you know, some, from the work that I've done, especially around trauma, one of the principles that has really become very, very deeply embedded in me is that there's really two brain states. There's fear or safety. Those are the two choices. And there's a, it's a spectrum. So we can be a little of both, which sometimes feels like excitement and sometimes feels like anxiety, sort of depending. But, but these are, this really the two brain states that we're going back and forth from, and most negative emotions that people are feeling come out of a fierce state. In fact, I might even hazard to say all, but I don't believe in all and everything and nothing, and never. So I'll give myself, you know, like, 98% of negative emotions come from fear and, and probably 98% of positive, all of these positive capacities come out of safety. So if we can't create a safe environment for our clients, and I don't mean just we care about them. I can care about you and create a very unsafe situation for us. Hmm. Based on my biases that I place upon you or my judgments about what's right and wrong and what you should or shouldn't do. I mean, we start using these kinds of things. We start telling clients. Yeah, so you're, and I hear this like when I'm doing assessments, I'll hear this often. A coach will say, yeah, I can really tell that you're feeling X, Y, Z. And it's like as soon as you do that, I know it comes from a really good place. Like you're trying to be empathetic. But what you have just done is laid your bias on top of another person's experience. And by not inviting them, like I'm noticing a shift in your energy as you're talking. I'm curious what's coming up for you. It could be negative or positive, it doesn't matter. But by turning to the client, we create safety because now the clients at agency to answer the question for themselves and to, and how many people empower us to. Ask ourselves these questions and to explore these things that show up. Yeah. Right. But rather tell us how we're feeling. Yeah, absolutely. And, and this is probably a great segue to come back to the creativity piece, because what I just heard you say there is that when there is a sense of safety, that's when we have capacity, you know, when, when things become more available to us. And I know that, I know you have a, a real passion and, and knowledge in the space of neuroscience. And I also know that you are very interested and do a lot of work in the space of storytelling, story jacking, metaphor, creativity. So tell us a little bit more about, about that, because that really is your thing, isn't it? You know that. Yeah, it really is. I'd love to hear about what is, what is you as Lisa, the coach that you, that you really bring? Well, as Lyssa, the coach I'll start talking to about myself in the third person that's very creative. But really, I mean, I think that what is important to me is to really draw out the creativity, not just of myself, but of another person. And, and again, you know, this idea of safety and if a, if a brain feels safe, if a brain feels non judged, if a brain feels heard what it does is it opens up to possibility to creativity. Let's go with the fear of failure, because that's not, it's not being asked to do something perfectly, right? Like, so all of a sudden now it's just having an opportunity to explore. It's not right or wrong, excuse me. And so I think, you know, and it's sort of funny because I think there's a place where coaches wanna put a x nay on the story. Like, oh, the client's just story, story, story, story. How do you stop the story? And one of the ways that we stop the, the story is we ask the client what's important out of the story, number one. But then the other thing that we do is we start really listening to the visual languaging and the idea containers that are contained within what the client is sharing. And most clients share things metaphorically. And this really goes back to, you know, Early human beings and how we navigated the landscape to survive. And so back in the seventies they, there was this idea of these four conceptual metaphors, and this really kind of all goes together, but thinking is eating, thinking is seeing, thinking is moving and thinking is manipulating, which honestly makes perfect sense that our brain would have regions of the brain specialized for these particular elements because we needed those things to survive. Yeah. Lions, tigers, and bears. Oh my, right. And so what happens is when any time a client or any human being is asked to describe something, An experience that they're having or a feeling that they're having or a belief that they have, they will often move towards metaphorical and visual language at that point. Well, what that does is it allows you to tap into their creativity. And I was just actually having a call last night and we were talking about this. If you come to me and you've got this litany of challenges and problems, and we're gonna start to tackle them one at a time, that can be incredibly overwhelming. People's self-judgment comes up, it's gonna take their brain into this really negative. Not necessarily like scared place, but not as useful place for certain, and if instead what we do is, you know, they, you know, most people will talk about it in the form of like full plates come up a lot in conversations. Juggling comes up a lot in conversations. Feeling like you're on a hamster wheel comes up a lot in conversations. Right? And so we know if we look at it in the frame then of a very full plate, it's not nearly as threatening because most of us have filled up a few plates in our lives, right? And we like, that's kind of a cool thing until it's too much. And we're sitting there and we're like, why did I eat all that food on that plate? And it's not that dissimilar from the actual experience of being overwhelmed in our. So people then, you know, by listening deeply to the story that the person is telling, it's not about listening for the details of the story that isn't important at all. I mean, maybe important a little bit, but it's really not the issue. But listening for the visual language that they're using so that we can then leverage bidding, curious, using their language. Well, trust and safety. I'm not only am I being heard, my words are being mirrored back to me in a way that's useful that I had never thought of before. Because this is the other thing about the mind is that we get into habits and so we say the thing that we say the same way so many times that we can't even hear ourselves say it. Right. It's kind of like if you've ever, if you're married or if you've ever been in a relationship for a long time, you really don't even need the other person there to have the argument anymore. If you've done it enough times, you know what you're gonna say. You know what they're gonna say, you know what your response is gonna be, and this time you're gonna really get them. And the reason we do that is because the brain, once, you know, it's been evolved to save energy and so it helps to habitualize things. Yeah. But the problem with habitually things is we don't hear them anymore. And so the metaphor that I use with my clients is, you know, your client is, is dropping trees in a forest. And if nobody is there to hear those trees falling, did they make a sound? And, and often the coach is so focused on the outcome, so focused on getting you that schedule reorganization or those tools that they miss these really important trees that are falling in a conversation and thus the client doesn't feel heard. The client has no opportunity to play with these things that have shown up. and, and at the end of it, they have some tools or they have some action steps, but how often do they not follow through on their homework? Right? Yeah, yeah. Because they didn't come up with it, and it wasn't based on what their own insight and awareness was because the coach didn't go there with them because they were sticking to a script. Yeah. Gosh. Absolutely. And, and, and you know, I'm thinking as you were just describing that I don't know why I'm coming back to psychological safety again and again today for some reason, but, you know, there's something about working with metaphor isn't there, that that can create safety because it kind of disassociates us from. The, the internal experience because we are witnessing, then we are talking about the, the, the, the full plate or the over bringing bucket or whatever it might be. There's a kind of separation that can happen, isn't there? That we can go to a, a second or a third person to look on and witness more dispassionately what's going on rather than being associated into the difficult feelings about it. Exactly. Overflowing plates, really full buckets. If, I mean, and it's hilarious too, because then we use metaphors to describe this separation, right? The bird's eye view, the 50 foot vantage point, right? Like we go straight into metaphor and we know what those things mean. So what metaphors also do this sort of creative clean language. What it does is it doesn't lay a bias on the conversation. I can say, you know, if we were to pull back and like, look at this like it's on a television set or we're, you know, gonna, if you, if we pulled back and got a bird's eye view of this plate, what are you noticing the client can go anywhere at all? And to your point of safety, what makes us feel more safe than there's no wrong answer. Yeah. We're not being led. An interrogation, like as you look at this, what do you need to learn from it? Right? Like then all of a sudden the client's like what do I need? I'm not even sure I'm ready to learn anything from it. And all of a sudden the kind of the, and it doesn't necessarily happen like a no, it, it can if you have a really strong client, but it, it happens more like a shutting down and you start seeing clients use monosyllabic, kind of answers, like, yes, no. Hmm. Yeah. Hmm. I guess, okay. Mm-hmm, right? And you start seeing this in a coaching conversation and you can tell at that point the coach has lost the client. Hmm. And mostly that's because the coaches started monologuing about Or sharing their oversharing, their perspective, versus staying in a place of curiosity and wonder with the client about what the client has brought forward and being in partnership with that client for the client's benefit and being led by the client instead of now feeling the need to lead the client. But that often happens when we feel like we need to get the, you know, people talk about landing the plane all the time, you know, like, we're getting close to Cincinnati, it's time to buckle up and land this plane. And, and at that point then the coach starts going into like this kind of robotic sort of thing, and the client, and they're trying to make sure the client gets it all versus just asking. And, and anytime we tell versus ask, we're gonna challenge psychological safety. Mm. Can't help. And this, it's interesting, isn't it? Because this, this can so go in, in contra to what we think we are taught when we first start to train as coaches, which is, you know, beginning, middle, and end, and a structure and an outcome and forward movement. And, and of course, you know, that's all good infrastructure and yet there comes a point where we've got to kind of let that scaffolding fall away and just go mm-hmm. with where the conversation needs to go with where the client wants to go. Mm-hmm. And I agree with you. I mean, I think we spend so much time in our lives becoming experts that, that we, we revel in our expertise, number one. And I think coaching education, if it's done well, Starts to strip some of that away from us and we, we learn how to ask open-ended questions instead of close. Like these are fundamentals that we have to learn. I kind of think of it like a art, an artist in France at the turn of the 1900s, they're going into like the Louve and they're copying the masters, not because that's their style of painting forever, but they need to understand the fundamentals of color and brushstroke and line and things like that. Where is this the same for coaches? Because we don't typically grow up in a culture, most of us that asks open-ended questions. We, most of us grow up a bit like attorneys where we only ask questions we know the answers to. And so we, or we don't ask questions and we kind of lead a person like through this yes, no scenario to get to an outcome that we want them to have. And I think it's that piece of learning to trust that the clients truly are whole, capable, resourceful, creative is a piece of it. And the letting go of attachment to my expertise in the conversation that I'm having with another human being in a coaching session. I mean, these are part of the evolution and growth of a coach and also of a human being. Yeah. And honestly, I wish everybody in the world would become a coach. I wish everybody would take coach training because even if you never wanna be a coach, I think that ultimately if you could learn some of these skills of curiosity, that that going circling back to where we began. It would, it would really improve how we function as a, as a larger society and within the microcosm of, or even just our families, right. In our friendship circle. Yeah. I mean, I couldn't agree more where, where my thinking goes such a lot nowadays is beyond coaching as a profession, even though I'm sure it will continue as a profession, and that's great because we are getting more professionalism, more integrity, more rigor, and more greater standards and, and education, et cetera. But you know, what if everybody had some kind of coaching skill, you know, through, from young children at school education projects, teachers, heads of department, parents, social workers, you know, it, it, what, what if everyone, just as part of how they communicate, had capacity to, to, to switch into a more curious eliciting. Being there and honoring for the other person role, you know, and, and also I, I'd welcome your perspectives on this. One of the things I've been thinking about a lot as well is not just the skills of coaching or a coaching style of communicating, but the values that seem to be embedded within coaching. You know, if you look at our competencies, and I mean, aside from looking at our core values as a profession, you just look at the competencies. Words that that pop out to me are things like mutuality, respect, autonomy presence, listening, care, empathy, concern, support, growth development. I mean, just those words as values of, of the, the kind of principles or energy or intention that we hold for each other, regardless of whether we're in a coaching conversation. Imagine a world where we all as a human race just carried a bit more of that around with us, you know, in, in our interactions in the, in the supermarket or at home when we're making dinner. You know, that, that could be incredible, couldn't it? I personally, and I think you and I talked about this the last time we met in January, what if coaching wasn't a second, third, fourth profession? What if it was your very first profession? Right. And I agree with you. I mean, I think that the skills that coaching offer us as human beings impact positively every relationship that we have. It doesn't mean that I'm gonna coach my husband that doesn't work, but instead of coming at him angry about something, I can come with curiosity instead. How does that change the dynamic of the outcome? And going back to locus of control. If I'm mad about something and I scream at him, I'm going to have a particular kind of outcome. I actually know what that outcome is. It's not that useful. He shuts down. If I instead go talk to me, what's, what your thinking is here, like, help me understand. I have a very different kind of outcome than I do if I'm like, no . Right? And so if we can even learn how to do this, and I, I mean I used to do relationship counseling all the time and it was like, how do we learn to listen to each other? Yeah. How do we do that? Because that's fundamental to our being able to be present with another human being. And with coaches, it's really funny because I see lots of coaches and they're taking notes and so I have lots of conversations with coaches about all this note taking that they're doing. And you know, what happens if you let go of the pencil and just set it down and you're just really present with your client? Well, I can't do that. How many friends do you have conversations with where you take notes through the entire conversation with your best friend? None really. How do you remember what your friend said, you know, 15 minutes ago to bring it back up in the conversation? Well, I'm just really present. Yeah, there you go. There you go. It's right. I love that analogy. I thought, thought about. I'm going to steal that one. You do. You know, I love that cuz I have those note taking with clients, conversations with coaches as well. But I'm, I love that analogy. So I will, I will definitely steal that one if I may. You may. But, I know we could talk for ages about so many different things, but we're probably starting to maybe come to a pause for now, but before we do that, I would hate to finish our conversation with something that you wished you'd shared or you wished you'd voiced or put out there, you know, into the space. That is our conversation. So what else would be important for you to say before we, we come to pause today? I think if I were to say anything, and whether this is to human beings or human beings who are also working on being coaches or, you know, just human beings in general, is finding that way to have some compassion with ourselves as we grow and evolve. And to, to find that internal courage, that internal structure, like get a coach. Have a trusted thought partner. Explore what will help you have a stronger internal structure so that you can courageously challenge yourself and be self-reflective and look at the things that hook you and look at the places where your biases and judgments come into conversations. Because these are the places where we actually have the autonomy to make a difference in our own response to whatever circumstance we find ourselves. But honestly, you know, it is so funny. I'll kind kind of end with this. I taught anger management in the Air Force for seven years, and people would come to me and they'd be like, how long is it gonna take me to be done with this anger management? And I'd be like, honestly, I have no idea how much courage you, like it could take you literally a week if you're really courageous or it could take you the rest of your life. It sort of depends on you because it's going to take courage to go, I need to pause right now and I need to explore what just showed up. And I mean, and I think that's the place of, you know, like the book, the reflective coach is really starting to look at exploring our work with people. But coaching supervision, which I know you absolutely are a part of that also, I mean, the value of that for coaches or for anybody who works with other human beings. So that we're really noticing, reflecting on challenging the places where we get hooked, where we are afraid, where clients have gone into a space we haven't actually worked on our, in ourselves. And so we try and steer them away from that because of our discomfort. Yeah. Like those are the things that we as a species really need to be. That's what courage is, right? Courage is the willingness to explore ourselves because the, that this is the one human being I actually have some control over. Yeah. Yeah. Gosh, I I love that. And, and, and you're just really highlighting for me the, the new competency that we have in the updated model embodies a coaching mindset. I'm so geeky about these things, but I just love that competency because it's really highlighting, isn't it, that whilst we are coaches, we're still human beings and we are still a working progress and we still get triggered. We can still be unprepared, we can still be the victim of these difficult emotions and responses if we choose to. And so the work on ourselves as practitioners is hugely important, isn't it? If we're going to be of service to other people. Yeah. So thank you. I'm always surprised by coaches who are like, no, I don't have a coach. I'm like, hmm. Interesting. What does that say about your value around coaching? And I mean, it doesn't have to be like a coach that you have as a coach, but like maybe you're in a coaching supervision group or you're, you know, there's lots of different ways that people get the support that they need to do the self-reflective practice, but I think it is super important that we are doing ourselves, what we are hoping others will do with us. So that we can hold that space with another human being. What is that saying from Ghandi, be the change you wish to see in others? We have, we have to be that change in ourselves as well, don't we? And that's, and that's a lifelong quest, isn't it? It's so, well, thank you so much, Lyssa. I've as always, I've really, really enjoyed our conversation and hopefully, and I'm pretty sure we will, we'll have some more soon. Well, I would love it. Round three for sure. Thank you so much for having me on your podcast, Tracy. I appreciate. Oh, thank you. It's a real pleasure and an honor. Thank you. You have been listening to Coaching in Conversation by Tracy Sinclair, a podcast aimed at exploring how coaching is a vehicle for human development in today's and tomorrow's world. You can learn more about coach training and development@tracysinclair.com and follow us on social media. If you enjoyed this podcast, please leave a rating and review and also share it with your networks to help us expand our reach. Thank you for listening and see you next time.