The Start of a New Beginning with Mel Leow

Hello, my name is Tracy Sinclair. Welcome to Coaching in Conversation. Coaching In Conversation is a chance to discuss and explore, not just how we can keep develop. And ensuring as coach practitioners, but also to consider how coaching is evolving and its future potential in place as a powerful vehicle or human development in today's and tomorrow's world. I'll be sharing some of my own thoughts on these topics. And we will also hear from some great guests from around the world who bring their unique experience and perspectives. Hello and welcome to another episode of Coaching in Conversation. This time I am joined by Mel Leow from Australia, who is a coach that's been practicing for over 17 years and has four and a half thousand plus client hours working with leaders and executives, predominantly across Asia Pacific, but also more broadly across the world. MER also has an organization called Catalyst Coach. Which has a real passion for him in terms of his mission, which is to equip over 10,000 coaches to impact the lives of over 10 million people over the next 20 years, and I imagine he's well on his way to fulfilling that mission. Mel is also a published author and he has a wonderful podcast as well, the 100 Master Coaches podcast, which I would really encourage any of you to have a. What was so noteworthy for me in my conversation with Mel was just how full of uplift and hope and inspiration it was. In a world that we live in today, that is so full of complexity and for many people, some significant challenges. He was able to really invite me, and I hope you as well. So have a reframe of what is our opportunity here at the moment. And I certainly found myself really, really inspired by some of the, not just some of the things that he was saying, but, but some of the, by some of the mindset and attitudes that he is choosing to bring to himself, to his work and his world at this time. So in that, Essence, or in that regard, I've chosen to call this particular episode, the start of a new beginning, and I really hope you enjoy it. Well, Mel, thank you so much for joining me today on this podcast. As we were just saying, we are at either ends of our day. It's very early in the morning for me and the end of a busy day for you. So I really appreciate you, you joining me. Um, and welcome. I'm really, really looking forward to our conversation. Um, I'm really happy, as I was saying, for us to see where our conversation goes, um, and to, to see what emerges in the moment. But perhaps to start us off, I'd love to hear a little bit about, about you in terms of what brought you into coaching in the first place, but perhaps even more importantly, what keeps you in this profession? What is it that's compelling for you about coaching? As a way of working or communicating that you feel, you know, keeps you in that work. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, Tracy. Once again. Uh, uh, I just wanna say, uh, thank you for, uh, inviting me on the show. Um, wow. It's a, it's a big one, right? Um, I first perhaps gotten introduced to coaching when. A friend of my father's came by the house and I think it was the year 2004, if I'm not mistaken. Right. And, and she was talking about how her life has changed because she's, uh, gotten into some sort of program. It was a little bit of a blur for me, and I, and I really couldn't. Understand what she was saying because I've not heard of this sort of coaching ever before. Right. So there, there was having a conversation with her, just listening to her, I, I think I got little bits of it, but wasn't really sure Right. And then fast tracked that, you know, a year later I moved country from Malaysia to Australia, and that was the time in 2005, when I often say this, I bumped into coaching. Um, it's one of those things when, you know, you spend time with yourself and then you discover that perhaps it's time to. A little bit of a turn into a different career altogether. And it was, I think, um, a new beginning for us, uh, in this land. Um, so why not? Right? A lot of new experiences living a, in a different country, different culture. Um, We had our third child. Then so many shifts and, and, and personal changes that was happening. And one of the things was I felt that it was time to walk away from, uh, the roles that I was playing before that, which was I was a marketing, well I can say marketing expert in, uh, fast moving consumer goods as an industry. And I stepped into this world to be frank, not knowing what I stepped into, but I think with that faith of realizing that this could be a new journey ahead of me, I took that leap. And yeah, I would say that changed my life actually completely. And to your second part of that question, what makes me stay? Um, I think it's, it's that shifts that I've personally experienced, um, of, of me being, uh, a husband, a father, a son, a friend. I believe my relationships benefited from that journey of coaching. Um, personally, I, I felt, I, I, I became more of a reflect. Um, versus just doing things, you know, jumping into action all the time. Um, I started to reflect it at what I'm doing and, and not just that, but the who I am becoming, right? Mm-hmm. And then obviously it also affected the relationships, right? I believe I had better conversations with my spouse. I believe I had, uh, better, uh, enhanced relationships and of course better questions, uh, to my children, right? It helped a lot as, as they were growing up. Uh, and I think overall it just gave me, um, this sense of. I wanna be in this place where I can contribute to the betterment of us as a, as a, as a human kind. Um, and, and, yeah, make, make the world a better place. As, as cliche, cliche as that sounds, I, I just felt that I was called to that journey. Of impacting lives. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And I, I think that that was what made me, um, after, after 17 years now, it has kept me going and I, I believe, even stronger to this day. Mm-hmm. I, I, I love what you are saying. Coaching being life changing for you, but also now the calling that your experience to, to try to impact other people's lives. This in the same way and, and that really resonates with me, especially in the, because coaching has become, I guess so known now as a, as an executive tool, as a development tool in a corporate setting and which of course is wonderful because coaching I'm sure adds enormous. I know with work I do myself, it adds enormous value from a leadership development perspective. But it's a great reminder. It seems to me what you are just sharing that actually. Coaching is about relationships with others, but also with yourself and That's right. And how life changing that can be. I mean, what, what are your thoughts on, on the potential therefore of coaching to not to not just help us find our next job or to navigate our career, which of course is all very important. This, this, this question of our life and, and how we lead our life. What are your thoughts on that? Well, that brings me to this, this particular experience I had with one of my, uh, last working, uh, environments that I was in Malaysia before I moved to Australia. I, I had a, uh, a boss, uh, that. Truly an amazing individual. Now, I was in a role of general manager and he was my group, c e o. Right? So obviously in that relationship there is that, I would call it in any, in any organization that would be that power index, if you know what I mean. Right. And hence, that would probably affect how we speak to one another, right. But this was one of my best experiences, if not my best experiences in working with someone. And in fact, he wasn't really my boss boss. He acted more like a, on hindsight, a coach more so than anyone or any role did he play. So to me, I feel that that one experience now thinking back. It was like he, he showed me the way on how a coach, not just as you say, helps someone in their work life, but it's a holistic stance, isn't it? Um, we are not just a person at work. We are a whole being. If we are a whole being, we bring our very essence to wherever, whichever context that we engage in. And yes, the workplace takes a lot of our time in, in our lives to, uh, to engage with different people. Hmm. And so I believe that there is this place where coaching, just like I'm sure you've experienced, When we are coaching a top executive, um, we're not just saying, oh, just please speak about the objectives of what your, um, goals and, and, and desires are professionally. Don't ever bring up something personal. We're, we're never saying that because it often. Collides, isn't it? It's, it's like this meeting place of, of everything, right? And this, this wonderful conversation as it opens up and, and as our wonderful clients begin to trust the process, trust the relationship a little bit more. They tend to bring more of themselves into the conversation and, and I think that's the best place to be. I, I, I feel so honored and privileged whenever I speak to my clients because they're just coming full on and I'm just so proud of them. Right. Um, Versus how we started. Perhaps, you know, often we would start at a, perhaps a bit awkward and formal way, but as we, we bring down those barriers, Um, and as the trust get built over time and the rapport, it just seems like we're just having a wonderful, holistic conversation that cuts across the professional sometimes. And then of course there's personal, and then going back to the professional, it's like it's this endless walk in this beautiful forest of discovery. Yeah. So I, I, I reckon to, to, to that question, and that's a, that's a beautiful question. Um, in reality, I think the best of my conversations were always the ones where the client comes in and speaks about himself or herself. Mm-hmm. And it just starts at that, at that space in that, in the authenticity and vulnerability. Um, it just opens up so much more mm-hmm. Than we think possible. Mm-hmm. I'm just sitting with what you said there. You said that coaching is like a beautiful, uh, an endless walk in a beautiful forest. I mean, what an amazing way to, uh, that just captured me, you know, made me think I want to go on that walk. You know, it's sort, such a wonderful way to describe coaching, an endless walk in a beautiful forest. And, and, and I can only agree with you about this, the wholeness of the person that working with, and I, I noticed. You know, sometimes in how coaching is positioned now we've got so many different disciplines, whether it's business coaching, leadership coaching, executive coaching, life life coaching, which I've always found to be an interesting term as though life coaching is not about us when we're at work or vice versa, like you were saying, you know, there's this separation of of disciplines and sometimes when. Coaches when I'm talking to people who are considering training as coaches, yeah. They'll ask that question, should I train as a life coach, or should I train as a business coach? And I've always found that absolutely. A little bit of an anomaly in a way of, well, it's all coaching really, because we're working with a whole person and Yeah. And yet we seem to have this desire to separate things out, to get clarity of definitions and things like that. Mm mm. Absolutely. I, I, I agree. I, I've noticed that as well. And I, and I, and perhaps it's, it's because we, we want to be able to attach some sort of meaning and value to it so that we can, um, sometimes even control the outcomes of it. You know what I mean? Yeah. It, it's one of those things where we, we, we, um, We put on these different, uh, definitions so that we can understand it and, and, and also be able to, uh, um, understand the boundaries of them. So there I, I think there is a, there is good and bad in, in both of it. Yeah. In whatever stance that we take. Um, but yeah, I, I, I think, uh, um, w. Is, is the way he gone. Absolutely. And, and talking of value, um, I guess we know that coaching as a profession has probably had its work cut out over the last 20 or 30 years to prove its value in a way, you know, particularly when we are challenged around things like return on investments and all of those kinds of things. But yeah, at least my sense is, is that there is a broader. Recognition now across the world of the value of coaching. I'm sure there's still more we can do to demonstrate that value and, um, but I'm, I'm just wondering what your thoughts are on what is the potential for the value of coaching given where the world is at? And I don't want. Suddenly go into a doom and gloom kind of painting of a picture of where the world's at, at the moment. But we know we have several, you know, rather significant challenges that face Yeah. The world in different ways face humanity in different ways. Um, I I, I've got a really strong sense that coaching has an incredibly important role that it could play. Mm-hmm. And I'm, I'm curious around your thoughts on that. Yeah, it's, uh, it's definitely a, uh, it's a big thought there. Um, as, as I listen in on, um, different people that have been speaking with, um, clients to, to other friends and peers in the industry, um, there is a common. And another common theme is that it talks about the, the resilience of us as, as, uh, a human, uh, being or, or human, uh, kind, where we're often strong, strong girl when we are faced. Challenges, it kind of builds this sort of, um, I wouldn't say immunity, but it, it builds a kind of, um, steadfastness, uh, drive. Um, yeah, it, it just, it just helps us become better than we were before. Two and a half years ago, or three years ago, we were probably. Envisioned that we would have gone into this whole lockdown of moats in all of the world, and we probably, at that point of time could not see the, the light at the end of the tunnel. But having gone through that now as, as all of us have gone through different challenges and how we needed to. Um, or recommunicate, some, uh, communication of vows we have come out really strong on the other side. Um, I think even countries have have prepared themselves for lots of things, right in, in preparation for other potential so-called threats that may come our way. So in that sense, I think. It, it, um, it has strengthened us as a community, um, as, uh, as one there is I think, better understanding, um, there is better appreciation of the challenges and the differences that has come through this. And obviously right now as we are facing other challenge. From, uh, recession and inflationary issues, uh, the world is facing right now. Um, come to think of it, it's, it's been there. We've gone through that. Uh, it, it's like something that we, we've, we've had to experience in our time and so that we can come out stronger on the other side. And each time I. It has actually helped us appreciate the things that we have and the things that we probably need. Like for example, um, the investment of talents in the world. I believe that there will not be a, a stop for that. In fact, I think organization realized that. They now need to invest in talents a lot more than before. Hmm. Right. Whether it's, it's another round of whatever come our away, they now realize that talents are here to stay. Truly. Hmm. And we've got to take the um, Stance, the leadership stance, the proactive stance to further develop the people. And I think one of the things, uh, apart from coaching is this whole generational, uh, shifts that is happening in our workplace. Um, the younger generation that we, we are experiencing coming into the workforce. And I believe there are like four. Generations in the workforce never before. Yeah. And there's this great appreciation of our differences, our, uh, strengths, uh, what we stand for in our values and beliefs. And it's just been, I think, the best time. To me, this is the best time to live actually, because we've all come like, it's like full circle to, to. To now realize we need these, um, differences to thrive better and even stronger as humanity. Right. Um, and coaching. What better way? Because I believe coaching is like this glue that ties it together. It, it creates a safe. It believes in the human potential. It encourages dialogue, openness, um, listening in to, to the depths of what people are really trying to say. So all of the above is actually the language of coaching. So I believe that we are in this beautiful time. Where it's, if you're a coach today and listening in, this is the best time to be right now. And I'm just so excited in how even technology is assisting this enhancement for it to be even stronger than it ever has been. So to me, it's. Um, an opportunity and a gift that we are given right now to bring this, uh, together to the world. Well, I, I feel so inspired, Mel, by just listening to you there. I just love the, that sense of opportunity. And it very much aligns with one of the things that I feel about coaching right at this period in, in, in history, if you like, or in its history that we are on the cusp of, um, coaching really coming into its own. That in, in the face of challenge and adversity coaching as a way of supporting us navigate some of these big changes that we've been experiencing. Um, is almost what it was meant to before, um, which is wonderful. And, and picking up on something else that you just said in there about the generational range that we've got, um, it just piqued my interest because one of the areas that I'm particularly interested in is, is supporting younger people and younger leaders to not just receive coaching and, and be coached, but to train and become coaches and. You know, from what you were describing, coaching was not your first career and it certainly wasn't my first career. In fact, it's probably my third career, um, which of course is probably still the case for many, many people in, in the coaching, um, profession, but increasingly, I'm starting to see younger people, younger leaders coming into coaching and I, and I, yeah, I'm doing from my, from my little contribution, I'm doing everything I can to try to really encourage and support that. And with the young leaders and young people that I've been working with, I've, I'm seeing some amazing things happening in terms of their own changes, their own life changes, but also their incredible. As coaches and, and sometimes there's been a challenge, hasn't there within perhaps a younger person's capacity to be a coach because they don't have the so-called life experience or the business experience behind them to to be a coach. And maybe you can tell from my tone, I. Would want to challenge that because I'm not, and I, yes, and I, my ev the evidence I'm seeing is that that's certainly not the case. That there is, there is, um, an enormous quality that a younger leader, a younger person can bring. What, what are your thoughts around, around coaching with and for and by younger people and leaders? Well, the first thing I wanna say is, um, I never coached CEOs, uh, and head of departments 10 years ago unless I grew older. The people at my age became the CEOs and heads of depart. And I got the opportunity to coach them. Perhaps the older generation before me would feel a little bit uncomfortable if I were their coach. Let's put it this way. But as we are serving the people that obviously we attract as well, it has shown me that. There will be coaches for their own generation. And I think that's a powerful thought. Um, it it's gone past the boundaries of, um, age or lifestyle or all of the, those things that we, we try to bucket it into, right. It's, it's become one whole big open feel. Where I believe now is a time where we are going to see new things happen. Um, younger, much younger coaches, um, coaches that I believe will speak into lives that. Because they are the ones that will be the future of their generation. Mm-hmm. Think about this. Um, I recently read that obviously you've probably seen it as well, that the younger generations, the, the, the voting power of the future of any country falls in the hands of the. 20 fives because they're a growing, growing number of, of, uh, influence. And, and obviously their voice is starting to be heard, not just because we've got to hear it Yes. As they would say it, but it's because it's needed. Yeah. Right. Um, And so that's what I'm going to s uh, I think we're gonna see is this increase of younger people coming in and not just becoming external coaches. They're, they're gonna bring coaching into every aspect of their life. Uh, they, they probably, uh, going to be much more amazing coaches than probably we could ever. Uh, they, they're, they're more open to the, the innovations that are coming. They're, they're more open to the, the shifts and, and all the, the, the things that are challenging our belief systems and, and, and systems, systemic stuff. Um, it's a little harder, I would say, uh, I would speak for myself that sometimes that I had to. Really work on myself before I start to accept certain things. But I think the younger generation, uh, their level of acceptance is, is a lot. It's a lot better. And, and with that, I think that comes with the strength that they have to be that age. I don't like to say that word, but it is true there. There are a lot more agile than I think we could ever dream to be. And I think that's just wonder. Uh, they will be the ones that would shift and bring the new changes. Um, There was another reference to this research that was done probably now, 15 to 20 years ago. That was the early times for the gen wise to, to come into the market and they were saying, oh, the Gen Weiss are gonna cost, you know, a lot of, you know, hardships to us and all of that, right? But when they ask the important questions of, um, what do they really want? From the workplace or from, uh, the organizations that hired them? One of the key things that I believe it was the top five, was they were looking out for mentors and coaches Yeah. That they could speak to. Now that was Genis, which is part of the millennials. Right. Let's talk about the Gen Zs and then the generation after the Gen Gen Zs. Yeah. They, they are going to one that and a whole lot more. Right. A lot more openness, a lot more. Why not? Right. And, and that will be coming very, very soon. And I believe that we've got to be ready for. Um, and not just be ready, but begin to receive them as they are. Right. Because they bring so much more to the plate, um, to, to enhance their own generation mm-hmm. And be the leaders of tomorrow. And as you are talking there, Mel, I'm thinking, you know, It, it, it's a challenge then even more, isn't it, for us as coaches to, to truly embrace the competency as we see them of a coach. Um, the openness, the transparency, the vulnerability, the understanding someone in their context, in their system, in their belief structures, in their history that we see embedded in our competencies that are so much. Um, pointed towards not just how we behave as coaches, but how we are mm-hmm. How we are as, as human beings, and then professionals in that work. Um, so those competencies really do need to be part of our fabric as practitioners, don't they? Absolutely, totally agree. You mentioned innovation in, in your story there and, um, it just made me think, I don't, I don't engage in this side of things too much, but as you mentioned innovation, it took my mind to another trend that we are seeing in coaching around AI and bot coaching and, um, You know, large scale programs that leaders are being plugged into, um, with, with coaching on tap and increasingly this potential trend, or as some people are seeing an even threat, that the human coach is replaceable. As, I guess there is that potential threat across many professions in the world that AI will replace Sure. Us as human beings. What do you think about that space in terms of the human being versus the bot coach? Well, I think it's undeniable that, uh, all of this is or has come in different, um, Ways. Right. Uh, to me I see it as, um, as a help, as an additional help, um, to reach, um, the places that probably we as one person, even with the internet and, and with apps and all that. Can't, can't possibly reach that, that, that fast and that fast. And so I think that there's, there is a place, and there is obviously a benefit to have bots. Um, I have friends who have, um, org you know, they run organizations that, that run an AI coach, uh, bot right now. And to me that. Obviously important, uh, to the enhancement of what, what, what, what we see today, right? We can speak to, uh, our little, uh, whatever you have at home, that appliance and say, Hey, play me a song on my Spotify. And it plays, right? So it, it's no longer going to put the record on or the little tape in press play. It's. As you say on tap, it's on demand. And so we, we'll start seeing a lot more of that and we've got to be ready, um, and, and be open to how all this is going to further enhance the, um, acceptance of coaching. Hmm, the replacement question, I think it will probably never completely happen because there's always that part of, um, even coaching like, um, in other professions that would meet the creative and emotional element of a human. Of course a robot can mimic a lot of that these days, but I believe nothing replaces the human touch, whether it be, um, Us realizing there is something behind that and connecting with that person, with those mirror neurons. Mm-hmm. Um, as we speak, like even right now, right? When, when, when I'm speaking with a certain amount of emotion, you are sensing my emotion and, and you're picking it up for yourself. And, and I, I think in that sense, that can not be replaced, but. We've got to be open that the things are coming that was gonna change the world. So it's best to be holding loosely on things that we think are going to stay on forever, but to become more and more, um, accepting of what the new tech is gonna bring to enhance coaching as a whole and, and bring further benefits to all of. Um, yeah, I, I think it's just wonderful to see all of these advancements happening. Um, and I think we are still just at the tip of the iceberg in coaching. Mm-hmm. If, if you compare coaching to, let's say, having a doctor, right? Uh, a doctor, a general practitioner in. In every part of the country, just talk about one country, right? You, you wouldn't know that there are X number of thousands or maybe even hundreds of thousands of general practitioners all across the country. And yes, there will be that sizing down of the need for X amount more, but if you just compare and see what the percentage. On that versus a coach in the nation, you would see that like it is a drop in the ocean actually. The percentage is, it's so, so small. Um, that to me, I see that gap being that meeting place of more culture. Needed more culture that we talked about. The generations, more coaches that fit with the different people groups as well that can speak perhaps even a different language that can, can relate with a certain lifestyle, can that can connect with a certain context that is more poli applicable. Again, than a, than a robot can do. So, so to me, we're just at the tip of the iceberg, I believe, uh, and coaching as we think it's getting into a mass state. I back to defer, I believe coaching is still at the, at the very, um, infancy stage and there's so much more room for growth as we, as we look at it. Mm. Well, that's very, again, very inspirational, um, to hear you say. And I love the, the creativity that I'm still hearing in how you are describing that. And it, it's reminding me of something we were just talking about earlier, which is about cultivating therefore the being of the coach, the human beingness. Versus just focusing on the behavioral skills because a bot can do that, can't they? The bot obviously can ask intuitive questions. It can be programmed and coded in a very sophisticated way to, to replicate some of the automated responses, but, What is needed really is that the presence, isn't it? The presence from the coach, that sense of emotion and energy that, as you were just describing, we can even pick up across a Zoom call like this, you know, even when we're not necessarily physically together, although of course I'm sure it amplified if we were together, but Absolutely. But there's something about that human presence and, and I was talking just yesterday to a group of coaches around. You know, if all else fails, be present and be curious of, of, of how can our sense of being with not doing to or doing with. Yeah. But being with the other person is, is quite often almost all that's needed in a way. Mm mm Whilst you were saying that reminds me. Just a, uh, uh, a loving, caring relationship, right? Um, we, we could be with someone for many years and, and, you know, we, we will know the nuances and, and we were like, yeah, I heard you. You know, and, and versus, Realizing that imagine if we, we could go back time and, and see how we treated one another when we were courting, or when we were just starting to go out with one another. Right? We were curious. We remain open. We wanted to listen to what the other person said. Right? So to me, it's, it's not to lose that element of, you know, being. Playful. Even being like a child, being like, uh, someone who's exploring, um, the very depths of, of that human being. It is like, I wanted to know more about I wanna spend more time with you. There's not, not much time in the day for me to spend with you. You know? And then after we're married for 25 years, we were like, I see too much of you. Right. So I think it's, it's, it's that, it's the same thing, right? It's, it's, it's, can we still remain. Um, in that, in that state where we are still wanting to discover, we're wanting to, um, even surprise the other person Right. With, with something beautiful. Right? With, and we do that with, with our curiosity, with our questioning. Right. Um, helping them to discover their. They're gifted, they're beauty within them. So, so I think that, um, as you were saying, it brought me to realize, Hmm, perhaps I, I, I have to remind myself. How I used to be with my spouse and perhaps even in my relationship, get, get better, Mel. Remember that, Mel, let's get better. Let's get back to that reason we started off together. Yeah. So I just wanted to say that. Yeah, yeah. It's so important, isn't it? And it, and it, I notice a, an emotional response in myself as you say that. Of that deep level of caring, the, the real care, the real positive intention. You know, these cliches that we hear of unconditional positive regard. Our clients are creative, resourceful, and whole. And yet that is ultimately what it's about. And we really, it's true. When we are working at our best, we'll, genuinely and sincerely be flooded with that sense of this is the person that I'm working with to bring that curiosity and, and love, I guess in a way, a love for another human being. Absolutely. Absolutely. And, uh, you know, um, love breaks down all walls, right? Even in, in conversations with the toughest person in the room when, when they know that they are cared for and that you support, um, them, and doesn't mean that you have to agree with them, but if you, if you show them that respect and honor and, and, uh, and care, they would. Feeling like I'm being treated like a, a human being and not just your, um, competitive side of things where, where you have another person to compete with, right? For, for that position. So you're just trying to prove yourself in, in those conversations. And so I think in all of these conversations there is, there is that need to go back and to ask ourselves. Um, the deeper intention, like you were saying, how it began in the first place. Yeah. That deep care and curiosity and to just remain in that state of believing that this person is creative resource and home. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And if I may, I'd love to. Perhaps as we are starting to to, to come to a conclusion today, at least for our conversation, I'd love to invite us back to something you said right at the beginning, cuz I'd love to hear a little bit more about that, which was, yeah, you described your work in a way as a calling, and I'd love to hear Mel, given that you've had 17 or more years already in this profession. What does the next period look like for you in terms of your sense of that calling? Wow, that's a big, that's a big question, Tracy, and I really appreciate you asking that. Um, I have, I've been reflecting on it ever since I turned 50, which was just a month ago. Oh, congratulations. Oh, thank you. Thank you. It does start to you, right? You become more reflective and you're like, and um, and I've been thinking about that, right? Um, I've asked myself, you know, how many more years do you want to to play in this play? Um, and, and I realized that this work often comes back to me. It's, it's, it's impact and contribution. And, and to me, I think that's, that's the reason why I, I do what I do every single day without fail. Just, just wanting to find that one place that whatever it is, it could be a small part of that conversation, but, To make sure that I'm fully there, fully present fully with my whole self. To be able to, to, yeah. Cause a little bit of a ripple effect. Right? And may not be what I'm doing, but it could be how I am, how I'm being, how am I, I, I'm positioning myself it, my presence and the questioning of all the things that we've talked about today and just being there for this other human. And when I realized that, I realized that I come back to a daily question I ask myself is, what is the most important conversation that you're gonna have today, Mel? And as on, on, on the structure side of me, I look at my, my, my, my schedule and I'm like, perhaps this is the one. Perhaps this is the one, perhaps this. And you know what Tracy? This is definitely one of them for today. Um, it's, it's just amazing opportunity that I get to, to share a little bit about what I believe and, and the experiences that I've experienced myself and just to bring that to another person and say, if this is your first time listening to what we're talking about, you know, this world of coaching and, and what it we can do for. This may be the start of a new beginning for you. Hmm. And it, it, it's been that for me as I move on in this next season ahead, I believe it would be like that, it, it's a daily question. I'll ask myself, what, what, what sort of impact am I leaving behind? What sort of contribution are you? Going to be a part of, in this bigger sense of the community that you can serve. And one of these areas is, um, this continent called Africa, where I have, uh, a big heart for, for a couple years now. I've been, I've been there, uh, a couple of times already and I believe next year I'll be doing a little bit more work in, uh, select number of countries there. And I'm just so looking forward for that because. It's that, isn't it? It it's the reason why we do what we do. Um, and as you asked me, is that word I used calling for me to be in this land that if you asked me logically I have no links to because I'm not from that land. Because it's another human being on the other side. And, and the exposure to coaching may not be as advanced as what we have experienced in our part of the world. And I feel like this is the opportunity, Mel, this is the place where it's time for you to contribute in. So, so this is, um, part of my, that dream. Democratized coaching and, and, and to just bring it to the ends of the world, um, that impact and that contribution into the lives of others. Hmm. Gosh. Thank you so much, Mel. I'm just, I've just, as you were sharing that, just reflecting on so many highlights from our conversation today that have taken me to a place. Really reconnecting with that sense of opportunity, innovation, creativity, growth, potential. Um, In a world that can so easily be described as in big trouble at the moment, you are painting such a beautiful picture of possibility. Um, so thank you so much for that. It's been really, really personally uplifting to, to talk with you and hear you talk and um, and I really hope that the people listening to that feel the same and take something. Positive and uplifting for them, regardless of whether they're coaches or want to even be coaches. But hey, you know, come on into the profession if, if, if you want to kinda thing. Um, so thank you so much. Um, thank you. It's been a real pleasure to, to talk with you and I, I, I know you will be baking those ripples. I know you do. And, uh, thank you. And thank you for doing that. Thank you for your contribu. Thank you so much Tracy. Really, really appreciate your questions and your sensitivity and, and just yeah, availing yourself even with this podcast to reach more people with this. Thank you. Thank you. I look forward to when we can talk again soon. You have been listening to Coaching in Conversation by Tracy Sinclair, a podcast aimed at exploring how coaching is a vehicle for human development in today's and tomorrow's. You can learn more about coach training and development@tracysinclair.com and follow us on social media. If you enjoyed this podcast, please leave a rating and review and also share it with your networks to help us expand our reach. Thank you for listening. I'll see you next time.