You Matter with Karen Dean

Hello, my name is Tracy Sinclair and welcome to Coaching in Conversation, the Mastery Series. This series of conversations explores the concept of mastery in coaching. And I have the great pleasure of talking with several ICF Master Certified Coaches from around the world. Welcome to To understand what mastery really means to them, both as coaching practitioners and also as human beings. We explore many different perspectives and nuances of this topic, and I hope it is of use and interest to you as you continue to navigate your own pathway of development. Hello everyone. Welcome back to Coaching in Conversation with myself, Tracy Sinclair, and this time I am delighted to have another conversation with a wonderful colleague, Karen Dean. This conversation is part of our Mastery series where I have an exploration with Karen around the concept of mastery. Particularly within the context of coaching. And Karen is a wonderful coach who has been practicing for many years. And she has done some fantastic work in the space also of supervision. Self supervision and a product and a service that she offers called Me My Team. Which is really, really enabling. The ripple effect, if you like, of coaching across not just individuals, clients and practitioners, but groups and teams as well. She's also the co author with a colleague of hers called Sam Humphries of a book called Coaching Stories, The Flowing and Falling of Coaching. Which, if you haven't read it, is a wonderful book. Real, very meaningful around just some of the natural stories of when it really comes together and flows for us and also stories of where we get caught out and perhaps feel that we've fallen over. So this conversation is incredibly rich. I'm really looking forward to you listening to this and perhaps telling us what you think of it. And this particular episode is called You Matter. Well, Karen, here we are again for, well, our second podcast conversation, but not our second ever conversation as we have quite a few. And we were just talking about how we tend to go, So such a deep dive very quickly in our conversation. So I'm sure we're going to do that now in talking about this concept of mastery in coaching. So I'd love to start the conversation off with just an initial question of what does mastery mean to you. The essence of it for me, Tracy, is In the moment of letting go, we have all we need. And when I've done what I would describe as my better work and feel the flow of it, then that is always present. And the letting go, the not having to, not needing to, not crafting it, not controlling it. We're just allowing and trusting, trusting myself primarily, I think in order to better trust the client, then that's absolutely, for me, the essence of mastery when it's present in the conversations that I'm having while coaching. Hmm. Hmm. So I love this idea of letting go and I think I heard you say trusting, which I guess is a, an enabler of letting go. It's easier to let go if we trust, right? How do we do that? With great difficulty, I think. I think it's a, it's quite a scary place. Because we learn so much around what we should or ought to be doing, what the competencies might be, what the markers are, what's expected. Potentially, whether we consider ourselves to be fulfilling our most professional manifestation as a coach and also what on earth is the client thinking and what are they getting and how are they feeling? It's a really complex thing. So I think the trusting and letting go is, is a very tough call. But in doing so, there's something very beautiful, very simple, tremendous ease, most gorgeous co creation and energizing with ease. It, it's, I'm always so aware of the juxtaposed opposites of. of what comes together and enables something quite extraordinary to happen. I was having a conversation recently about, you know, all the challenge with no support isn't really going to get you where you'd love to be for the outcomes. And equally, I know we're, when we're training this to be in a place where we're in rapport and we're allowing and we're compassionate and And we really want to support, but without the edge that comes to make it a coaching conversation, not a lovely conversation. Doesn't mean that coaching conversations can't be lovely, but needing both simultaneously, I think is also a really significant part of it. I love that. So there's this concept you're bringing in then of a flow state in a way with that sweet spot between safety and challenge, support and challenge. And I'm, I'm really getting a sense of, and the reason I'm speaking to this is because this has been my learning edge for years in life as well as in coaching is not striving and driving towards something, but allowing it to happen, letting go and allowing it to emerge. With trust, trusting that it will emerge and flow rather than trying to seek it and make it happen. Absolutely. And the word that's just come up for me is belief. So it's, it's belief in what's possible for the coach and the client, for myself with another. Believing that we will have all that is necessary, just as we want to believe that the client has all those resources within them. I think there, there has to be a belief that in, in that co creation. All that is needed will be there and we don't have to force it, put it in, bring it in, in our pockets, unpack it from our bags pull it out of our heads. It's it's about believing in a way of being and honouring the client's way of being and noticing how those two coalesce. Hopefully in the service of the client's outcomes, what they want and, and that then enables them to take action in their own right where they've empowered themselves in effect. The piece I'm picking up from you there, which feels really important to underscore is you've already positioned there how we want to have that belief in our client. What I'm also hearing is a sense of belief in ourselves. So, We're taught, aren't we, that there's a presupposition in coaching that our client has all the answers, they just haven't yet accessed them and articulated or expressed them and our role is to help them, support them in facilitating that process. But there's a presupposition that they are creative, resourceful and whole, isn't there? And yet, We often seem to think about that's what we have to believe about our clients. And yet actually we have to also believe that about ourselves, don't we? And, I think that offers a direction to continue moving, learning growing, manifesting, becoming more of who we were always meant to be bringing the essence of who we are to, to our lives and our work. And so beyond the, the accreditation for, for mastery. How, how am I going to keep moving, keep growing and learning and, and again, that road is not a straight one. It's in, it's incredibly complex sometimes and things that we thought we'd really. sorted or dealt with pop up again and again and again. But every time in that learning, we're growing, we're growing, we're becoming more of whom we're destined to be and can bring that in the service of another. And I think that's where the joy and the honoring of both the coach and the client can be fully present. From what you're saying, it sounds then as though the ongoing development of the practitioner as an instrument of the work is, is very key here to keep knowing ourselves to keep recognising our own patterns, helpful or unhelpful, so that we are As you said, becoming the person we're meant to be, constantly becoming the person we're meant to be. And deepening and strengthening and becoming more whole each time we learn more healthy, more at one. I don't think that's a state we're ever going to... Reach in absolute. I, I think that's, that's our ongoing life's journey, but that's my opinion. But that we can continue to move more, more fully toward that and, and feel the joy and simplicity of that. It's interesting. You just said there about the health, the health, our health and being at one. I don't know if you've come across this in, in, in your work, Karen, but what I noticed in from various sources is there's an an upward trend in a lack of wellbeing amongst the coaching community in terms of, you know, coaching burnout or People feeling conflicted with their balance between their work and their home, and it's that, that sort of typical paradox, isn't it, of, I don't know, I always think of the builder's house, who makes everybody else's houses look beautiful, and yet their own house is still a building site, because they're focusing on everybody else's. This can often happen in what we might call some of the helping professions. I don't like to think of coaching as a helping profession per se, but you know, nurses and doctors who are actually stressed out, not looking after themselves, care workers, the same. So it's just interesting that you're using that word health of, of us as practitioners in the field of coaching as well. I wonder if you, if you want to say any more about that, really. I completely understand what you're describing and if we're honoring and valuing the client, then we need to be in positive parallel with that, such that we're honoring and valuing and seeking our fullest health as an instrument of our coaching, which is a phrase you've used a couple of times. And, and I think it's absolutely essential. And it certainly for me is always front of mind when I'm supervising other coaches is to listen out for When their attention is on the busyness of their practice or fully focused on the, you know, what can I learn to do better next time? but somehow losing sight of, not noticing, or seeking to contain, dampen down, ignore what what's going on in their system. I think it's especially important for me because I know just before we spoke now we were talking about the body giving signals, and I listen to my body very, very much in conversation. I absolutely trust that whatever is coming up, whatever I'm noticing, be it some tension in my solar plexus fullness in my heart constriction in my throat. Almost as if whatever is the energy of that is flowing from the client and through me and therefore in the service of what am I noticing, what might I offer, what question rises up on on the wave of my, my physical being. In the service of the client's goal and, and their deeper understanding of themselves, bringing to conscious awareness, what they're then noticing, but then enabling the, hopefully, a wiser use of, of what's come up, which is a gift in the moment anyway. No, there's. When clients have those deeper realizations, even transformations, there is trust and belief and co creation and mutual respect and something whole and healthy, worthwhile, and the essence of that is present in the conversation. And I think we, it, it, it's easy to say it's an honor, but I think it's awesome and should be noticed with humility, but also welcomed and celebrated. When we reflect on our flowing work. Thank you. And it's, as always, my mind is flying around with all sorts of different things here. But the thing that's staying with me is, is a, is a paradox almost in coaching. And, and I'm just mindful of a conversation I had recently, which is another great podcast with a colleague called Heru in Malaysia. Our topic was paradoxes in coaching is one of the paradoxes that I think you've just highlighted here, Karen, is when we first learn to coach and we're first in training and we are growing and developing, there's this kind of rule, if you like, that it's not about us, it's about the client. It's centered, it's all in service of the client, and we should be intervening very lightly with ourselves, and we know that this can be. a real point of tension for coaches to know, well, how much of me do I tap into? How much of me do I bring in? Because we're taught that we're sort of almost supposed to be leaving ourselves outside the room. And yet we know that's not true, don't we, from what we're discussing here. We absolutely need to be not just in the room, but in the energy space, interacting on all levels with that person. So how, how does a coach know how to navigate that in terms of your perspective of, you know, bringing all of that in, but also not coming in too much? And so you're, You're asking me, how does the coach navigate that? And I'm describing this parallel process of, of noticing. And, and that's incredibly demanding. So we need to be well and whole and paying attention. It is led by the client and the gifts that the client are offering are important. And I suppose what I hold in mind is what's the simplest thing I can say now. What's the... What's the question that would be most useful? Sometimes I could go at ten questions, but actually, what, what's the one? And in that moment, there's a sort of time standing still, and I talked previously of what, of what rises. on, on my awareness that, that comes to me. So my questions don't come from my head. I think as the coach noticing that there's an awful lot of, of going, of, of game saying, of evaluating, of choices, of of what ifs, of not quite sure and making the decision of shall I actually say that. I think that's an incredibly Debilitating but necessary phase for a coach to go through. And I always in my learning, at whatever level, there are moments of utter deconstruction. I know sometimes it's described as unlearning, but for me, I experienced it as quite a violent thing, really. You know, everything that you thought you'd built up, all that performance you believed could achieve, I found, for me, was deconstructed. So, I think it's, it's gradually building that trust, trust of self, trust of signal, continuing to have the attention on the other. and noticing what are the simplest intervention I can make that would just ease the client to their next level of awareness or insight. That's wonderful and I've got two I'm trying to sort of pocket some of these gems for whoever's listening to our podcast here. We've got trust, which I'd love to come back to in a minute if I can. I'm just kind of logging that one. We've got belief, and we've also got simplicity. What's the simplest question that I could ask? One I'd love to pop onto the table that I think I'm hearing, but I just want to... Check if this resonates with you. And, and that is the concept, I guess, of enhanced space and potentially silence is, is one of the things that I experience at least, is a sense of time slowing down and almost to a point of, you know, potential stasis in a way where time kind of freezes and. You're not having this ping pong of two people talking. There's, there's light touches or there's big sharing. And then there's big space, potentially, that is something I often speak to some of the coaches that I'm training. about is silence and space in coaching is not just for the client. It's also for us to, to ground, to check, to calibrate, to notice, to feel, to be aware, to consider so that we can pick that one simple question from the 10 that we could ask. You know, so I don't know, I'm, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but that was what I was picking up as well. So what, what are your thoughts on that? When I'm in, when I'm in those moments, there's a sense of the universe, that sounds terribly grand, but there's, I really resonate with the idea of space. There's sort of that infinite yet minuscule, you know, in the, in the infinity of the universe here, here we are. And the, the wealth that comes from the letting go and experiencing the space. And that sense of hold, hold, hold, hold, and then has great beauty. And however long we think the client is processing, they probably need to process a little longer anyway. I know in the past we've talked about some of my, not only my flowing stories, but my falling stories from from our Coaching Stories book. But when I've been thinking or eager or believe I thought I knew where it needed to go, which is, you know, is awful. But I have, I've done that because it's in the end what happened between the client, myself, whatever transference was going on. Then that's the antithesis of what we're describing here. And I'm, and I've absolutely done both, but the wonder that comes. with that space that, that you're articulating resonates for me too. And it, it feels very... timely actually just to, to, to put a real signpost to your book at this point actually, The Flowing and the Falling Stories, because which anyone looking will see a nice picture in the background there, because that, what I love about your book is, is two things actually, well lots of things, but two key things that always stand out for me is, is we do flow and we do fall, you know, that this is not about reaching a particular credential level and then you are the perfect specimen and that's it, you're cooked, you know. We all fall sometimes, for whatever reason, because we're human beings. And also this idea therefore of how that makes... How that normalizes this process and how that normalizes this idea of the becoming of all of this rather than this being, you know, a benchmark to say, okay, I'm, I'm there then now I, I do that now. This, this is always the work in progress, isn't it? Absolutely. It's like, I do that now till the moment when I don't for a moment. And it's, it's so frustrating. But I think that underlines again how important it is to to take care of ourselves, to be aware of ourselves, to, to sleep, to refresh, to rejuvenate, to, you know, be healthy, use our bodies wisely and with, with joy and stretch our minds and whatever spirit, spirituality means for us is, you Whatever it is that feeds our soul and, and this body in which we live is truly worth our attention and it is so important that it's one of the things I'm most passionate about and I think you'll, you'll know Tracy that having spent last year going through my stage 3 breast cancer and coming to, to this moment talking to you now It was a very tough learning time, but, you know, I'm, I'm emerging and I'll use that word again and feeling rejuvenated with with a whole new vista of, of life ahead of me and, and new adventures to have with my clients and my family and my friends and, and anyone else I happen to meet. So. We really matter and, and we need to balance the importance of that with the humility of knowing That it isn't all about our attainment, our performance, our status, the letters after our name. They, they absolutely recognize the, the stretch, the effort, the learning, the desire to be professional that, that we've, we've put out there. And, and allowed ourselves to be tested and, and, and judged and found wanting sometimes and then succeeded at, at that level with whatever the criteria may have been. But I think the, the humility that comes with that, is an important anchor too. Yes, this word humility keeps coming up for me in my thinking and my own work in all of this space. The word humility comes up for me around how, as you are rightly saying, there is an element of attainment and performance and positive judgment. Hopefully that we, that we, that, and that's important too, isn't it? Because that's an acknowledgement and a benchmark of something that is. important and it's not, it's not the whole story. The whole story is we are still a humble person that still is learning and growing and we flow and we fall and we keep polishing the sword, if you like, of our craft. Yeah. And that's a gift. I think it's it's a gift to us as human beings and one we can, we can reach for and that in our own, which I think is the lovely thing with coaching is not only are we bringing people the craft, but we're bringing ourselves and our own unique ways of being to the clients who wish to be with us and, and, and how lucky are we? Absolutely. Yeah. How lucky are we? Well, I'm, I'm mindful. I don't know where the time's gone, Karen. This always happens when I talk to you. Maybe we've just been in that little lovely flow state there. In some closing words, perhaps, Karen, I'd love to come back to this, this word of trust and letting, and letting go. And We also know that's not, that's easier said than done as well, isn't it? You know, because, especially letting go sometimes, because we are so conditioned with rules and beliefs and social constructs and all sorts of things that, that don't make that an easy thing to do sometimes. And I'm sure that every one of us has to find our own way through that very uniquely. But what, what could you share to those listening around how you found your way to trusting yourself, the process and letting go? What, what worked for you or what catalyzed that for you? Getting over myself really. You know, understanding fully, it wasn't my role to, to fix. It wasn't my role to know the right answer. It wasn't my role to be best. None of that mattered and, and, and resisting trusting and letting go for quite a long time. And the, the self, occasionally self loathing that comes with, You know, not, not, it not working the way you want it to work. And I certainly experienced that. But what I know is when, when I was in a place where there was harmony in my mind love in my heart, then my gut was calm and, and I was in, in a state for trusting that there is something greater than me. that is there for me to connect with and, and then enable whatever would, would flow with the client in making connection with them. And takes a long time to be there and, and a lot of courage and also noticing sometimes there's, there's physical pain or complete despair in another part of one's life. That brings us up short, but if we find the coach or the practitioner or the therapist or whatever it is that we feel we need that will support us at that time, then, then in the understanding and learning and letting go of the pain, to find that there is something healthy, valuable and honoring, and the experience. And a next layer of who we can become. That's very beautiful. It's easy to turn away in those painful moments. Emotional pain and physical pain. But they are a gateway to, to a next. layer of whom we can be and I think I stayed with it. Each time that happened I recognized it as a moment of transformation and I stayed with it and knew there would be something beautiful on the far side and that for me underpins and underlines how important it is to trust and yet brings into stark relief how terrifying it can be. Yeah, yeah, well, I'm now lost for words other than that was beautiful what you just captured there So I don't really want to mess with that to be honest because I think you've just shared something very very meaningful Before we pause then Karen, is there anything else you'd like to share with those listening to us around our topic today? just to Encourage you to know that you will have your own unique journey, and, and take that which is flowing and, and value it, and notice it, and sometimes interrogate it, celebrate it, and Don't just tuck it away and go, Oh, that went well. And then, so what didn't I do very well with the next client I met? So allowing, because what that does is it builds confidence and reference experiences and increasing awareness. It's a, it's a turbulent journey, but one that's really worthwhile. And I would encourage anyone on this pathway to keep going. Wow. Well, on that note, Karen, thank you so much once again. I think anyone listening to this has had a real joy or a privilege to listen to what you've got to share. I've certainly not just thoroughly enjoyed it, but I can honestly say, and I want to go away and just get my journal out now, because there are some wonderful gems that are very inspirational and thought provoking. So... Thank you, as always. And I'm looking forward to the next time that we talk. Oh, it's lovely. I'll treasure it. Thank you, Tracy. It's been great. Thank you. You have been listening to Coaching in Conversation, the Mastery Series. A podcast that takes a look at mastery and coaching, what it is, what that means, how do we nurture or cultivate it, and many other interesting questions. You can hear more about coaching education and development at tracysinclair. com and follow us on social media. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a rating and a review. And also share it with your network to help us expand our reach. Thank you for listening and see you next time.