Mastery Series: Do You Know Your Why? with Sackeena Gordon-Jones

Hello, my name is Tracy Sinclair and welcome to Coaching in Conversation, the Mastery Series. This series of conversations explores the concept of mastery in coaching. And I have the great pleasure of talking with several ICF Master Certified Coaches from around the world. Welcome To understand what mastery really means to them, both as coaching practitioners and also as human beings. We explore many different perspectives and nuances of this topic and I hope it is of use and interest to you as you continue to navigate your own pathway of development. Hello everyone and welcome to another episode. So of coaching in conversation this time, I have the absolute pleasure of speaking with Sackeena Gordon Jones around the topic of mastery within coaching. Sackeena is a amazing figure in the field of coaching and then in our profession, she is an author. She is a public speaker. An executive coach herself, an educator, a mental coach and a supervisor. And she has also been very influential in working with our professional body, the International Coaching Federation, and with ACTO, the Association of Coach Training Organizations. So Sackeena has made a huge contribution to our profession and also to the field of coaching in terms of the practical work that she does. Sackeena and I had the great pleasure of working together. On a project that was organized by the ICF some years ago that was exploring diversity, equity, inclusion, and justice. And I was just so fascinated and in awe of, not just of Sackeena's knowledge, but more importantly, her wisdom and her compassion and her serenity, actually, in terms of how she brings her work to society. So I have. The real pleasure of having our conversation. This podcast is called, Do You Know Your Why? And I hope you enjoy listening. Sackeena, I know you and I have just been talking and I'm beaming cause I'm so excited to have this conversation with you. I recall some very. Inspiring and insightful conversations with you and we've worked together on some groups with the ICF around diversity and equity, inclusion and justice. And, I just recall those as being very uplifting and developmental times. So I'm hugely grateful that you have come to spend some time talking with me today. It's been a while since we saw each other. It's a pleasure and thank you for sharing that. I think that we did have some moments of what I would call transformative learning. And so I'm looking forward to this conversation as well. Wonderful. Our conversation is part of our Coaching in Conversation podcast, but it's also focused on what I'm informally calling the Mastery Series, which is a, genuine, open, creative exploration of What does mastery mean to each of us? What does it symbolize? What does it represent? And what does it mean in the context of, us as coach practitioners? As well as more broadly. So I'd love to just start off really by inviting you maybe to share a little bit for our listeners around The work that you do as a practitioner, I think people would be very interested to hear the kind of space that you work and operate in. I'm in a space that I would say has a mix of experiences that we co create with others. And by that I am an executive coach, I serve in the capacity of coaching, mainly with executives. And leaders of organizations. Organizations that may be non profit, government, Fortune 100, 500, so quite a variety. I also provide coaching services, if you will, to those that are in the military in the U. S., so officers, psychologists, etc. But it's a variety of things that I find myself called to because when I'm not actually in a coaching relationship with a client, I'm also an educator, a coaching educator. And so we have a school that is transformational in its, in its approach to coaching. It is a professional coaching school. The Institute of Business Coaching is what it's called, but it provides coaching that's not just business related. We offer Open enrollment programs for anyone who feels called to coaching. And I think that's an important distinction there, because there are many people who think, oh, I can coach and that's a profitable industry right now. So I want to do that. I think I have some skills, but we're really looking for those people who feel called. To coaching, meaning that there's something inside of them and who they are that suggests that this is something that they need to be able to also contribute to the world. And they want to be best prepared for that. And they, many of them are in business. They're in a business environment. They may already work inside of an environment that they want to bring coaching to, or they know people in within the business domain that they think. They can be the vehicle or the vessel, if you will, to bring coaching to. However, many of those that participate in our program are in other areas. For example, health care and academia and social services. The calling is what's most important to us. And so we've added to our, portfolio, if you will, of courses that it's not just business, it's also transformational coaching. And we have now moved from just open enrollment programs to closed enrollment programs, which are really bringing this coach training opportunity to Organizations that want to find a cost effective way to create a coaching culture. And by doing that they, actually lean into the culture by finding out who in their organization feels called. to coaching. And then we come in and help to develop a cadre of coaches inside the organization that can support the organization in creating this culture. So that has been fascinating because we've been able to do that now across industries. So healthcare, again, in academia, in our government here in the U. S. Manufacturing, finance, pharma the list just goes on of all of the organizations that are embracing this as the transformative way of creating the culture where people belong and where people are at their best and where they are contributing their highest. So again, so an educator, a coach, but also a speaker. I find myself in opportunities that allow me to speak to audiences that can be inspired by the sense of understanding that who they are matters. That they belong and that there is more to them than what is seen. And so my topics usually are things that are about the power of you defining best and living it. Things that really speak to the inner person and bringing them forward. And lastly, what I find myself doing is being a coach to coaches. So I provide mentor coaching, supervision. And sometimes just good old conversations with coaches, like we're getting ready to have. Oh, I love that. I love that. And then there are, some words just standing out to me, Sackeena, from what you just shared. You mentioned this word calling several times, which I'm sure is going to come up again in our conversation, belonging really resonates with me. And I know that's something that's, Very close to your heart from previous conversations we've had in the groups we've worked in. And also that inner, being where that calling perhaps is grounded. So maybe that takes us to the loose focal point for our conversation today, which is this idea that some of us have a credential that's called MCC, Master Certified Coach and I'm just going to open that up very broadly to say what does that word or that concept mean for you? Yeah, thank you for that question. I'm pausing to see how I would best approach that, that answer. And I think that what's coming up for me is to think about What led me towards this? Because honestly, Tracy, there have been many years between my applying for that credential and my eligibility of it. In other words, I was eligible for this credential probably 10 years before I even applied for it. And so for me I didn't feel like I needed another credential. I was happy to be, the coach that I was and to be able to, provide the coaching that, that I did. And there was a moment where, because I had several coaches, I've always had a coach since I've become a coach, right? So I'm one of those people that I realized that no matter how. How my clients feel about me, I realized I can't see myself either, and I need someone to help me. And the coaches that I had were all holders of this credential. And there just came a point where I was in a conversation with my coach thinking, am I best that I can be? Am I bringing the best to my clients? I know what I experienced from my coaches who were holding that. How do I know that I'm delivering to that level? How do I know that the impact of my coaching is similar to the impact I'm receiving from coaching? And so for me, it was more of a, where are you in terms of the impact that you can deliver? And so I think I moved towards it more for the peer review than for a status, right? The peer. Yeah. Sorry, go ahead. Go ahead. No I'll pause there. I was just really struck by what you said there, SAA of it doesn't matter how much I coach, I can't see myself, which really resonated. Then with that peer review. There's something about that mirror that we as coaches need equally as much as anyone else. I'm always quite surprised actually, when I. come across coaches, which I occasionally do, who have been coaching for years, but have not had a coach themselves for years. And I, just I, find myself quite curious about that. So I love the fact that you're sharing that. Yeah. And so I think, when you care about. What you're doing. You want to be at your best. I don't want to go to a doctor who doesn't want to be at his or her best. So I'm always curious when I go to doctors. What's the last thing you read? What, journals are you reading? What have you learned recently? Because if they're not. learning, then they're going to be treating me with what they knew when. And as we know, when we live, there are always some, there's always something new. There's something new to discover. And so for me, it is about the journey of discovering and deepening, deepening the practice that you are able to engage in and provide and wanting to be better. There's something very, Very dynamic and organic that's coming up for me from what you talk about here and I love the comparison to a medical professional and that whenever we're going to engage with someone, especially if we're paying for that service. We want the best that our money can buy, don't we? And so we are naturally going to want to engage with someone that is very current and is still wanting to learn, is still perhaps engaged with that calling. I know this term lifelong learner is banded about quite a bit, but you really seem to be bringing that to life for me around what that really means for you. Yeah. I think I had a mentor many years ago and He really helped me because I was, also learning just on an academic level, growing in my learning about different things. And he said to me one day, just, I think, trying to ensure that I stayed grounded. He said. Raise your right hand, Sackeena. And I did. And he said, repeat after me. All that I know is what I've learned. So I said, all that I know is what I've learned. And he said, and I haven't learned all there is to know. And that is really a good leveler. It is probably the force behind, Oh, that's interesting. Oh, I'd like to know more about that. Oh. Imagine that this new insight has come up. I wonder how that relates to coaching, right? So the general curiosity about recognizing there's more to learn. And I wonder what that means. And so that's the space that I come from and where I will look to add learning and to maybe try new things. What's really striking me, Sackeena, about what you're saying here is that. If we are in this space that one might label mastery, it does not mean it's a space where I've done all my learning. It's not a space where I know it all now and I've arrived. I'm hearing very strongly and I happen to agree with you completely. It's a space of looking for what else there is to learn, knowing that I don't know everything, that there's still going to be more to learn. And what was lovely about when you shared that was I noticed such almost excited energy. About that, about the fact that there is something playful almost was coming up for me that there is still more that I could find out about, discover, become. Yeah, I as we're talking about it, what I'm actually settling into is this sense that there is a level that you get to that's almost a level that's removed is removes you, and that maybe that is what. This type of mastery that we're talking about is, there's a level where it's about what you do and you're keen to do that really skillfully. And there's a level where it's beyond what you do and what exists, what is around you, what is before you, what is within you. And it's something about maybe bringing all of that together in a space of unknowing. But trusting, and the trusting is because of what you know, even the unknown of what you know. That sounds a little weird, but it's like we know that things change, and we know that there's some things that we have no control of and they'll change. So that's a knowing, even in an unknowing. Yeah, there's a paradox there, isn't there? Yeah, exactly. And it's the thing when, COVID hit and leaders were struggling with what to do and many of them feeling so out of control that they were unable to step up to lead. And I remember working with leaders saying, even in the midst of uncertainty. There is some certainty and you have to be able to bring that forward to your constituents. And so you could say we have no idea. We are so uncertain about what the market is going to do at this time, given a pandemic. But what we are certain of is that what we deliver. is valuable to the people on the planet, and so we have to find a way to keep delivering it. And there is a certain sense of peace that comes from that knowing, even in the unknowing. And I think that's the level of a mastery in this coaching context. It's knowing that what is going to transpire and happen before us and even transform before us, we don't know. But we know that something will happen if we attend to the person that's in front of us. So it's that level, I think, of presence and being that comes with this context. I'm really getting a sense, Akina, as you're describing that of, and please, challenge me if my words don't align with your intention there, but I was really having this sense of grounding. that even though I might not know, I don't know everything, I don't know what's going to happen or unfold in this coaching relationship, but I'm grounding myself in some level of knowing of the value of the process. I'm trusting, and I'm just putting some words in here, I'm trusting perhaps myself, my client, the coaching process, which allows me to be more comfortable with that unknown element. Is that what you're communicating? Yes, I think there's that. And I think I would put other language to it. I think it's a humility that comes in the coaching, which is quite interesting. Because when you think of the term master the context outside of coaching, even, it almost implies a lack of humility. It implies a, hierarchy that is dominant. And many of us in many cultures on multiple continents, that understanding of the word master is one of dominance. And it speaks to, superior and inferior. And yet when we're in coaching relationships, we speak of partnership. And so it is a quite different way of thinking about the word, but I think it will trigger that for many people, this idea of dominance or superiority. And I think what I'm actually saying is how I see it is. When a coach recognizes that they're at this level, it's actually the opposite. It's actually brings about humility in knowing that I don't know everything and the client that looks that I'm coaching may look exactly like me and yet I recognize it's so different. And I don't know that person and clearly if they don't look like me, I really don't know that person. So I cannot be the expert. I cannot be superior in any way to them. And I have to be open to learning as they are learning. Yeah. Learning about their context as they are learning about who they are and what they really want. So that it's the journey of partnership is a co learning space. As well as an empowering space. But I become really an instrument, not a superior. I love the word instrument. It's something I use myself quite a bit when I talk about us as being instruments of our work, self as instrument of the work. It's really striking, Sackeena, to hear just in a way how different, the traditional, perhaps more global interpretation of the word mastery is almost flipped on its head when it comes to the coaching context. And that feels like a really important point because I'm, aware, at least in my own experience, when I come across coaches who are earlier into our profession and they're looking to progress their coaching career and their coaching credentials, there can be this perception, dare I say misconception, that mastery and coaching is about. Getting to the top, getting to the top of the coaching ladder when actually we're talking about, and I'm hearing you describe some qualities that are totally different, that it's, the total opposite of superiority. It's about equality and partnership. And it's about humility, and it's about still being so open to learn, and not knowing not, coming to a place of, I know everything, but I know some, but I also. There's so much that I don't know. And I'm just wondering, what other qualities do you really feel that mastery in the context of coaching embraces that are useful for us to, aspire to and ground ourselves in? I would dare say that empathy and our ability to communicate empathetically. is probably the, one of the most important, qualities of a coach. I think that if we are unable to communicate empathetically, we will miss The mark of really seeing and hearing our clients and if, in fact, one of the biggest things that we can do is to be a mirror for our client, then we have to be able to see and hear them in order to reflect it so that they can see and hear themselves and in order to do that. There's two, two ways that you can think about reflecting. You can be like a parrot who is really, probably not matching the emotion in any way, or not recognizing it, but just literally repeating what they've heard. And I think that. In the early stages of coaching, there might be some of that, right? Just repeating. But I think in the later stages, in the deeper stages, what we're doing is coming alongside literally of our clients so that we're not sitting we're not sitting here and the client is sitting here. We actually, if we're coaching really deeply, We're sitting on the same side of the client trying to figure out how to hold my hands, right? We're alongside of them and that is what allows us to see what they see. Not agree with it, not, condone it. We're not, any of those kinds of things, but to see. What they see and to hear what they hear and that is communicating empathetically because when we do that, then they see and hear. And that's the deepest place that I think we can meet someone is to actually see them and to allow them to be seen to actually hear them. And allow them to be heard. I notice as you say that my skin tingles a little bit because that's ultimately the beauty, isn't it, of what we're trying to engage with the gift that coaching can bring. And that as instruments of our work we can somehow contribute to and enable. Obviously everyone's journey towards this place is different. We're all very different. I guess there was a time when you were one of those early coaches and in your time as I, did myself was very focused on how can I get better and how can I be, how can I do coaching more competently? What could you share with our listeners around Your own journey of growth that helped you to navigate and transition into the space that we're, describing here. Yeah, I I, maybe everyone says this, but I do believe that my journey. My coming into coaching was coming from a place where I felt that my purpose was very clear as to what I'm on the planet for, and coaching became a enabler of my purpose, right? So it wasn't the destiny per se, it was. It's a way towards, actually living out my purpose. And so I just, when I, went to school to be trained, I went to a year long program, but I just began to do it. It was incorporated in what I was doing and I didn't, I wasn't pursuing a credential. So I literally coached for several years and had amassed so many hours. and recognize that, the credential was useful in this terms of peer review and continuing a standard of coaching. And so at the time, I was shy of enough hours for the master credential, but over the amount of hours for the PCC credential. And so I just applied for the PCC credential. So that was again, my thing. And once I got that nothing really changed for me. I continue to do. What I did, and as I mentioned earlier, a number of years past where I had sufficient hours, but it wasn't a focal point for me until I thought where am I and how would I know that I'm delivering at the level that I would want to deliver coaching. And again, it was more of that. So I think that might be very different than others on the journey, from that perspective. And therefore, what would you to anyone who's listening, I'm sure you know there may be people listening to this who Haven't even started coaching yet or are at various levels in that journey. Perhaps with ICF credentials, perhaps not. What would you offer from your perspective? Not that we're in the business of giving advice, of course, as coaches, but what would you offer as a perspective to someone listening who, who wants to take their development to that next level? What would you offer them? I think there's two things. There's two things that I espouse and try to speak to coaches and not even just coaches, but the people that I'm fortunate to be with. The first is know your why, right? Know your why. What are you, doing it for? What is your hope in doing this? What is the dream? What is it that you want? I think when we come from that place, then it becomes our journey. There's a poem that I love from David White, Start Close In, is the title of the poem, and he says, to find your voice, don't follow another voice, follow your own voice. And I think that's knowing your why. That's the first. The second thing, I think, is knowing your me. So know your why and know me. Know you. In other words, because once I think you are aware of you and your deeper purpose, that aligns so much to the why that it begins to open the doors for you as to what makes the most sense. So for example, I am what my mom used to call a skeptical person, and others did too in my early youth. My mom said that I asked too many questions, and I didn't have a lot of belief in things, so I'd always have to prove them out. That's who I was as a child, and it's who I was as an adult. And so for me, knowing me, if I'm gonna be an educator in something, I need to learn more about it. I need to understand how it works. I need to understand how it comes together so that I can best use it. So I am interested in things that maybe other coaches are not. So for example, I'm interested in how the brain works and how that works with coaching. So I found myself. Going down a path of getting educated in neuroscience and neurobiology, not because every coach needs to know that. I think it can help, but because I am me and I want to help people not just become a better leader because they know how to communicate better or because they can build a team using the stages of team, but I want them to transform the lives of the people they work with so that they can transform the lives of the people they work with. So for me, coaching is about the shift. It's about the transformation. It's about making the planet better. And so when I come to coaching, I want to be able to bring what's happening inside of a person, not just what's happening around the person, together. So that they can see themselves, but see themselves in the context. Of what else is happening around them and then choose to move forward. So all of those things inform how I grow as a coach. And I think that's what I would suggest is don't try to be everything. Don't try to be well rounded. Try to be the best you and understand why coaching matters. Why coming alongside a person matters. That will inform maybe what you need to do, how you want to grow, what you want to learn. And then know you because then that helps you to grow at your pace and in a way and around the kinds of things that support your growth that will help to cultivate you in becoming the best that you can be as a coach. Wow. I'm almost tempted to just not say anything else at all because they're just such beautiful words. So Kina, thank you. And, I'm mindful that you and I could talk for such a long time. I love these conversations, but I'm just mindful that perhaps we're coming to a pause for now. Is there anything else? Before we close today that you'd like to share with our listeners based on what we've been discussing. Anything else that you've not had the chance to share that you'd like to give a voice to? I think I was in Europe earlier this year and it was a convening of about 50 coaches to talk about the future of coaching. And what I realized is all of us that were there, we didn't have a a magic ball. We cannot tell what the future of coaching is going to be, no more than we can predict our own futures. But what I think we did come to realize is the future of coaching encompasses our past and our present. And so I would want every coach to really consider what is around you. And learn from it and to give attribution and recognition to the fact that no matter where you are on the journey, especially if you're moving towards what we've been talking about mastery, there are things that are in front of you and there are things that were before you that matter deeply. And it's important for us to be respectful of that and to make place and make room for that. Yeah. So I know as coaches, we are nonjudgmental. And that's important, but I think we also have to be in some ways reverential, in other words, right? I think that will help us to respect our clients and recognize they're not us. And to also recognize that in this space of coaching, we haven't written the book on coaching. I think coaching existed before 30 years ago or 40 years ago. I think it existed hundreds, in fact, thousands of years ago. And so there's something there for us to learn from the ancient and from the indigenous. And even if it's our listening. We had people on the planet thousands of years ago who learned how to listen to nature, right? They knew how to listen to the ground beneath their feet. And there's something for us to learn there in terms of listening. I guess what I'm saying is, all of what we need to learn about coaching is not in the books and it's not in our coach. Education programs. It's before us and around us. Wow. I'm, it's rare for me. I'm almost speechless, Sackeena. Thank you so much. When we finish, I'm going to listen back to this straight away because there's just some wonderful things that you've shared some real gifts. And I really hope that and believe that whoever's listening to this, there's going to be more than one or two things in here that. So thank you for your, wisdom and your inspiration. It's been such a pleasure talking with you and I hope we get another opportunity to do so soon. Thank you, Tracy. I loved it. I love the spontaneity of it. I felt like I learned some things myself in the conversation. And I think that's really a gem when you're able to have an open conversation in which. There is true, stimulation intellectually and emotionally as well, and that happened for me. So thank you. Marvellous. Thank you. You have been listening to Coaching in Conversation, the Mastery Series. A podcast that takes a look at mastery and coaching, what it is, what that means, how do we nurture or cultivate it, and many other interesting questions. You can hear more about coaching education and development at tracysinclair. com and follow us on social media. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a rating and a review. And also share it with your network to help us expand our reach. Thank you for listening and see you next time.