Mastery Series: The Long and Winding Road with Hilary Oliver

Hello. My name is Tracy Sinclair, and welcome to Coaching in Conversation, the Mastery Series. This series of conversations explores the concept of mastery in coaching, and I have the great pleasure of talking with several ICF Master Certified Coaches from around the world to understand what mastery really means to them both as coaching practitioners and also as human beings. We explore many different perspectives and nuances of this topic and I hope it is of use and interest to you as you continue to navigate your own pathway of development. Hello again, everyone. My name is Tracy Sinclair, and I am delighted to welcome you to another episode of Coaching in Conversation. And this time, I'm talking with Hillary Oliver as part of the mastery series. I'm very much looking forward to this conversation not only because I know and love Hillary very much. I have known her for many years, and she and I have worked very closely together for a lot of that time and have become good friends. So I'm hoping that you will enjoy this conversation as much as I do. But to tell you a little bit about Hilary, if you don't know her already, she is a master certified coach with the International Coaching Federation. She's also a trained coaching supervisor and a mentor coach, and she trains and works with managers and leaders to develop their coaching capability within organizations and with their teams. And she also works as an executive board level coach. She designs leadership development and coaching packages and training programs and facilitates these kinds of workshops and interventions with many different organizations. Hillary also works closely with organizations to help them develop coaching culture, and she has a very long history of volunteering for the ICF going back many years ago to when she worked with the UK chapter and was the president of the UK chapter. And then from 2015, I think it was on the global board, and she was the chair of the ICF global board in 2017. So I've had a very lovely conversation with Hillary. I hope you enjoy this as much as I did. And this episode is called the long and winding road. Enjoy. Hilary, it's really lovely to have the opportunity to spend this bit of time with you today. I think we've been waiting quite a few months actually to schedule this conversation, so it's wonderful that it's finally arrived. And as our listeners will know, this is part of our coaching and conversation, the mastery series. So I'm gonna open with the question that I generally open with on this, which is to ask you what mastery means to you. I have to say I've been looking forward to this as well because I think it's a really interesting topic that is it's really worth pondering on about what mastery is because I am sure that many if you ask this question to lots of people, you're gonna get different answers, I'm sure, and you have already. So I have actually done some thinking around this because I was thinking, oh, what is mastery? And it's it's really interesting for me because I suddenly thought of, we've got RMCC coaches and then you have MBAs and then you have MSCs and what have you. And what is this mastery thing? And the thing that really struck me was that mastery isn't along which I walk or which you walk, along which I walk or which you walk, depending on what you're wanting. That means that along the way, you gather, I'm gathering, more and more experience, skills, understanding, and implementing those things in whatever is the chosen profession, mine being coaching, clearly. But it's that path along which you take, and it's so the other thing I came up to thought about was it's a commitment to this whole thing of lifelong learning. And it's not at the start of the journey. Clearly, in terms of mastery, it means you've been on this path for quite a while, but it's a never ending piece. So when I talk when I look at people and they say they're a master at something, it's for me, it's that they are committed to continuing to get better and better at what they're a master of. And that's, to me, is what mastery is that commitment. I'm really picking up there this interplay, therefore, between mastery and the master Because as you highlighted, I think there, master can tend to imply I've arrived. I've got it. I am it. Whereas mastery is this ongoing lifelong learning as I think you described it. Is that right? Yeah. Absolutely. And I think people do mix that up, that when you have a label, if you like, a master of something, that it means you are better than anyone else and you're the expert and you've arrived and, that's it. Whereas I actually believe that mastery is this continuing down a path of learning enlightenment even, because I think that's that is also true, is there something about enlightenment in that if you're following a path of learning more, getting more experiences, getting more skills, and what have you, I think there comes a point where there is a certain amount of enlightenment there when you because I know I've found that as I've done you know, gone through the coaching path as it were, is you gradually the more you learn, the more you go, oh, gosh. I didn't realize that, or that's really interesting. That really has an impact. And so it's adding to that basket, if you like. Yeah. So I absolutely do think it's a there is a distinction between master of something and mastery, and they get confused. So you've already before we've even started, hit on 1 of the big themes that is coming out of my conversations around this, which is wonderful, is that it is a journey. It's a pathway. It's a process. It's not a point of arrival. You've also said 2 words that really intrigued me that I'd love to maybe hear a little bit more about. The first 1 was commitment, and the second 1 that you've just said is enlightenment. So could we just go back to the commitment piece? Because you talked about commitment to learning, lifelong learning. What's important about the word commitment there for you? If I want to be the best I can be and continue to be the best I can be, if I just suddenly stop learning, then that is my path is almost ended. And so if I want to ensure that I'm continually looking at things that are different, the things that I haven't looked at before. We don't have to do it. But that commitment is saying, I want to be the best I can be, and the only way I believe that I can be the best I can be is to constantly be looking at what can I learn next, what can I do differently where do I need to go next or want to go next, more importantly to add to my thinking, my skill set, my experience? Whereas if I'm not committed to that, then it'll just drift. And then I think my own skills will drift. I'm a great believer in that we should have our skills what in whatever profession we're in. I don't care whether it's, accountancy or what have you, but, for me, it's coaching, and for us, it's coaching, is that we need to continually look at those skills and make sure that we're following the path that says, I know I'm still doing the best I can do, the best I can be? So that commitment to me is really important to continue to learn. It's about life, really, isn't it? It's not just about learning our skills. It's learning how to be a better me all the time or just how to be better. I'm not sure I like the word better, actually, but it's that sort of thing. And I'm really noticing the parallel that you're drawing here between coaching as a context for us and life. Yep. This sounds like this is a principle, if I could use that word, that cuts across that boundary into your life more generally? Actually, it's a really good point because I think you're right. I was only thinking just recently, not because of this either, how all of my I was actually focusing on all my working life, which has been very different over the years, going back. But actually thinking about it, it even goes before my working life is that I have every so often, every couple of years, changed whether that was when I was young and growing up. I lived in different places because that's how I was grow why I grow up because my dad was in the RAF. But then all through my working career, whether it's in the same company or a different company, I changed, and I learned more, and I gained more skills. But then also from a life perspective, that also had an impact on me. Yes, I think you're right in that it's something I believe in and I'm committed to wanting to just get better in everything that I do. And that often means changing and learning something new and taking something taking on a challenge. You know me. I do go in for challenges along the way. But I think that also it's about getting you know, being a bit more adventurous would also be in there as well. Mhmm. Yeah. You're right. It is a thing that crosses into my just into my general life. I'm also noticing here how you seem to be speaking to some of the concepts that we as coaches advocate or encourage in our clients. Yeah. Change, being adventurous, trying something different, being the best version, if you like, of ourselves or whatever. And now here we are talking about that as ourselves as practitioners, which just feels important to acknowledge as well that this isn't just for the client. No. No. It is for us too. How can we you know, if we looked at it just from a coaching perspective of our clients, if we're not doing the same work, I e learning, looking at ourselves differently, challenging ourselves to do something different moving forward, how can we expect our clients to believe in us if they're and to work with us if we're not doing that for ourselves? And I think that's why, we do a lot of training of new coaches, and we know that during the training, the work actually is done on themselves more than the coaching that they do in terms of, the practice, etcetera, of skill set, but it is about looking at themselves and what they want to do differently. And I know when I came to coaching, eventually, because I you know, 5 years before I really started to train as a coach, I had come across coaching, and I wasn't yet ready. But I think it spoke to me about this whole idea of changing who I was and changing my perspective on life and then helping others do that as well. It's just striking me some of your language there, changing who I was and changing my perspective on life. So there's you talked earlier quite a bit about skills, but there seems to be something more than just behavioral skill in here. Is that resonating with you? Yeah. Absolutely. It does. I think when I came into coaching, it was at a time when I realized that I was allowing things to be done to me because I, for whatever reason, wasn't standing up for myself. And I, I really believe that and coaching really helped me understand where I wanted to go and how to stand up for myself, if you like, in a way that worked for me as well. So I do think that it was an important crossroads for me. It's that path again that you get we go on. There was a crossroads that I came to that said, I either carry on doing what I'm doing and I wasn't that wasn't working or I try something different. And coaching is fundamentally about change. And so that then leads me back to mastery is needs for me, needs to be constant change. You're always looking to what more can you do? What could be done better? What could be done differently? Where do I want to go to next? That to me is what really affects mastery. It's interesting. You shared there that you came into coaching through being coached, which I know, you've shared with me before. And it just I don't know if this is controversial or not, but it just makes me think about the fact that quite a lot of coaches come into coach training, at least nowadays, is my observation. And they've actually never been coached themselves. They just have heard about this wonderful thing called coaching, and they want to acquire the skill. And I don't know. You've just made me reflect upon that around. Would it actually be a good I don't want to say the word prerequisite because that sounds too compliance based. But to have to come into this space having experienced it from the other side. Maybe it should be a prerequisite. I think there's a difference, though. 20 years ago, coaching wasn't widely really known. Mhmm. Say it still isn't. Mhmm. We know that we still have to educate and educate, but it wasn't widely known. Mhmm. I do think it would I actually believe it would help people understand coaching better when they come in to learn how to be a coach or how to use coaching skills if they do experience it. Because I think people come in with a very different perspective often, and we found that in what coaching actually is. This even down to this simpler thing of I want to help people. It's my kind of thing is it's not about helping people because that means they're helpless. It's a very different perspective, and yet people come in because they want to help people. And I think that, in order that you move more you move down that path towards mastery is getting rid of that perspective or that concept of coaching is about helping people. It's not. It's more about working with someone for them to see the change they want to make. Yes. I could I've got so many more thoughts just about that whole idea going on in my head, but let's come back to the other word that you said. I don't want to lose sight of that 1, which was enlightenment. So that's a lovely word. What's underneath all of that? Say more. It's it's interesting. The word just popped out, so I haven't really thought about it too much. But if we if you if we look at mastery as a pathway to ongoing learning, As you learn and do things differently, I and you then start seeing perhaps even the world differently, perspectives differently, that does give a sense of enlightenment about your own thinking. So I think it I mean, it's often used when you look at wise people. They talk about you get to a place of enlightenment. I'm not sure you ever get to a place of enlightenment. I think enlightenment, like mastery, is along that path. And if we look at that, it's enlightenment really means to, for me, to open up a new way of looking at things, a new way of thinking, a new way of doing and seeing what else could be there. I think that's what enlightenment means for me. It's a little bit like the purpose of life is life itself. Yeah. So it's the journey, that classic Buddhist or other spiritual mantras. Yeah. I think that's true which is a just a circle, isn't it? It's just a Yeah. A continual circle. There is no answer. It's yeah. I love that. The purpose of life is life itself. Yeah. Just to play devil's advocate then, This sounds wonderful and speaks to my way of thinking and feeling about this as well. And we live in a world that is quite significantly driven by goals, attainment, achievement, milestones, badges, awards, markers, all of those kinds of things that are very much focused on the point of arrival, the destination. So what reflections do you have around how do we reconcile those things then when we are going for things like a credential or a renewal. Do you see what I mean? How do these things sit together for you? I think it's a really good dichotomy almost in that sense. However and you know me, I love a good badge. I really do love a good badge. So really important, those badges. She does, by the way, for our listeners. She does like a badge. Got my latest 1 for finishing a trek. So I think the badges that we get, the credentials are there. They are for us to show our part the journey along the pathway. But I think they're also there to give validity and credence to those people, particularly in if we're talking about coaching, those people who are employing us. What they're saying externally is that this person has gone and trained and done all the right things and been assessed. It's the same with an MBA or a an MSC. You do the learning. You then also tell people what that learning is so that it says that I've understood. I know what I'm doing, and it tells other people that they have done had they have gone down that that pathway. It doesn't necessarily mean that you're any better than anyone else, but it just says you have been assessed at that level. And I'm I know pretty I'm pretty sure that, if I look at it from the coaching perspective of I've got an MCC, as indeed you do, I don't think I coach at MCC level every time I'm coaching. I absolutely know I'm not, but I understand what it means to coach at that level. And my clients know I've been fully trained and I know what I'm I should know what I'm doing with what, with the work that we're doing together. So I think it's for me, the badges, apart from the ones I love for myself are for a lot of it is for external consumption. And I think they're important because I do think that whatever profession you're in, sustain whether you're an accountant or a lawyer or whatever, is you need to know what some I think credential is a good word. You need to know that somebody has passed their exams, passed their assessments, and that they're safe. That's what it says to me. So I think there is a place for both badge and the concept of mastery. Yeah. I think you and I are quite aligned on many things around the itinerary, aren't we? But that's how I think about it as well is what was coming up for me is that the badge doesn't define me. It doesn't say I am this. It's saying this marker, this badge, this whatever indicates I've done these things, which reinforces my knowledge or my credibility or my ethics or my integrity, my professionalism, all of that kind of thing, which as you say is important to the purchaser, the buyer of our services, especially when we still have a marketplace that's largely either self, some would call it, or unregulated. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Very much I think it is really important to emphasize that as well, and I like what you said about it doesn't define us. You and I have got our MCCs. I don't go around saying I'm an MCC coach. I will put those letters after my name because I'm very proud of those letters. They're saying when I got my PCC, first letters I ever put after my name. So I think we can be proud of that, but it doesn't define who I am. And I think it's something that I learned about myself, I don't know, maybe 5, 6, 7 years ago when I started stop when someone said to me tell me about you, I stopped talking just about my CV. And I think that's important. I think that's that was a that was an enlightened way of me thinking, actually when I suddenly realized that, actually, that's what I did. I used to talk about myself as a professional rather than myself as Hillary. And so I think along the way, mastery can also mean that as you can let go of stuff. You can let go of the typical things we used to do and move into something different. That make sense? Does it make sense to you? As we would say in coaching. Indeed. Hopefully, it makes sense to our listeners as well. It may not, and that's okay too. Exactly. Exactly. We will make this what we will. Yeah. You're making me think of something else now then here, which is linked again, to this idea of we live in an infrastructure of, credentials and I and PCC markers and MCC markers and minimum requirements etcetera. And there's this, what's the word for it, I don't know, folklore almost around the MCC about how it's beyond skill. It's beyond the competencies. It's magic. It's, the mystery of the MCC. And, of course, that all sounds very charismatic and lovely. Yeah. But that doesn't necessarily help the PCC coach who is trying to develop themselves towards this process for all of their, hopefully, great reasons, for doing that. So what would you say to a coach who wants to start progressing towards this pathway? Given that we've already said it's lifelong, but given that we've already also said there are milestones and badges along the way, what would you say to them around how they could you know, in terms of what you've learned that might be useful? Sorry. It's a bit of a long question. But I absolutely get what you're saying because I think it's difficult. I know when I went through we went through our initial MCC mentoring and what have you, there was always this question as, what actually is it? And it was before there were these minimum requirements and other markers, if you like, to help. Did they help? I'm not sure. They do. But so and it there you're right. There's always been this mystique about it, Whereas I could look at it and say if you look at I think 1 of the if I just digress, I think 1 of the 1 of the really good things that ICF did was create this concept of PCC markers. It's also it can also get make people get stuck in that ticking boxes, which, as you and I just don't like you know, that's not what it's meant to be. But I think the PCC markers, from a technical perspective, and I look at it from that perspective, really give you a sense of that's how you technically coach, and that's good. It doesn't it's not ticking boxes. And we know there's a great scale between someone getting their PCC. There's a you know, at 1 end, but they can still be PCC level even though they're pretty experienced. So so we always talk about coaching the person, and I think it's more so at an m c at an MCC level, if you like. And so I would what I think helped me was to try and look at the markers for PCC and really understand those markers that really speak to understanding the person in front of me more. Not so much for me to understand them, but for them to understand themselves. I think that's the pickup for me is what are the things that I can that I could ask that enables the person in front of me to think differently about themselves or to think deeper about themselves around that. So I would I think the PCC markers are a really good place to learn even what an MCC coach might need to look at. And if you linked the PCC markers to the MCC minimum requirements, you might see what you need to do as a person training through that. And I think it's about also listening to different people because I know I listen to some, and I can also remember listening to some thinking, I have no idea why that's an MCC. I have absolutely no idea why that would have passed. And I think that's okay because sometimes that is true. I don't know what people were hearing. So I would, for me, I think it's is to become a master of competencies. I'm just thinking this through now. So be a master of competencies. So that means to be a skilled and a skilled person and understanding what the competencies really mean. And I always love this expression that I use with it. It's to make them less not words on a page, but bring them to life. What does it really mean to demonstrate these competencies at a deeper person level? And I think that's the path to go from PCC to MCC, is how well do you really understand the competencies. They're there for a reason. I think the new competencies or the new framework that came out are much better than the old 1. The old ones had their place and, they still are there. But the way it's now put together, I really think that to me is what it's about is really become a skilled practitioner of the competencies, understand what they are and their purpose, and then let them go. And I think then it becomes embedded in you as to what mastery actually is. Mastery is that goes on. It's never ending, but it's it's how you be as a coach if we're looking at it from that perspective. I don't know if that fits with your thinking. It does. It very much fits with my thinking. And I notice I'm quite captivated actually by something you said just at the beginning of that little piece there that I think is worth just highlighting is you said about the focus on the person and that you said that by looking at the markers to see where it gives us guidance on the person, You described the purpose of it being to help the client understand themselves better, not necessarily for us to understand. And I just want to underline that because that feels quite pivotal here in that sometimes we can think that as the coach, especially when we hear all of this within the competencies around understanding the client in their context or being sensitive to this, their environment, their organization, their culture, their values and beliefs, etcetera. There can be this assumption, and that means that I, as the coach, need to understand everything about them When in fact, the distinction that you've made that feels very important here is that the purpose is that they have a deeper understanding of themselves. And that to me is the most important thing. I think yeah. Absolutely right. It's not about us having to understand them. It's for them to understand themselves. And I sometimes think I hit on that in a sense in when I looked at the ACC minimum requirements sorry to get geeky here, but we know we're geeky. ACC minimum requirements for summarizing and paraphrasing and then looking at the PCC requirement for that, there is a fundamental shift there. Because in ACC, you are doing it to make sure that you've understood the client. At PCC, you're starting to shift to making sure you offer it so the client understands what they've said. And I think MCC takes it that next step fur further as well. So there's an absolute correlation between the pathway between ACC, PCC, and MCC that speaks to that for me. Mhmm. Thank you. That's a lovely example. And as coincidence was would have it, I was just talking to someone about that this morning. So that's yeah, that's so coincidental. Yeah. So in some ways then part of our commitment to learning could be to try to see this thread between and not to see these things almost as separate credentials and separate milestones, which I guess they are milestones. But what you seem to be describing here is how can we see the thread of growth or whatever between across those 3 phases almost. Absolutely. I think that's really important that it is seen as a I hate to use that expression for journey, but it is a it's a journey or a pathway across and to see how that changes as you move into becoming a master certified coach. However, even when you get your MCC, as we you know, text right back at the beginning, that doesn't mean you stop. It's Right. It's looking even further. Almost going back to the beginning, it's what is it that I don't know that I need now need to look at to know? It's the old unconscious competence cycle really. And I think that often is what mastery is about is, am I willing to go back right to the beginning to say, what is it that I do not know that I now need to know or I would now want to know? Wow. Gosh. There's so many things we could you know, places that we could take this. I'm mindful that we're probably coming towards the pause of our time for now, Hillary. But maybe as a final reflection, given your experience of this and your experience of the mastery pathway both as a coach and a human being walking through life, what lessons perhaps have you learned that you might share with others in case they're useful to them? Oh, wow. I don't know. I gosh. That's a really good question. What lessons have I learned along the way? Number 1 is never give up. That's very Churchill of you. Isn't it? Isn't it? Never give up. Keep challenging yourself because I think we as human beings, unless we're unless we challenge and that word means different things to different people whatever it means to you. But keep challenging yourself to find something new, to do something differently. And I think, for me, that's when I notice I'm not as joyous or happy, it's when I probably need to do something different when things need to change and, get bored or something. So give never give up. Challenge yourself. The classic be kind to yourself as well, I think, is a really important thing because sometimes we are not kind to ourselves. And when we're not is when I think we get into a Maya. And it's if at first you don't succeed as a kid, we'd say give up. But if at first you don't succeed, just keep going because you will get there. And mastery is about just keeping going and finding your place as well. Find your place of happiness. And I think that continues down that path. Wow. I have no idea if those lessons are good, but I think top of my head, they were ones that I would offer. With 1 of those there, you made me think of this reminder that mastery isn't a straight line either, is it? And mastery includes failure, if that was a word that we wanted to use, difficult or setbacks. Yep. Other than just progress and learning and milestones and achievement. It's all of it, isn't it? It's the whole thing. Absolutely. And there are there is a concept that says if you've never failed, you've never really succeeded. If you never give yourself the opportunity to fail, have you really gone have you really succeeded in whatever it is you're doing? And I do think getting a feeling of failure is is important as a way of learning. I can't remember some there's some someone famous has a quote around failure, but I actually think that's important to sometimes fail. And then, get up again and dust yourself off and get going again. So yeah. Anything else as a final word you'd like to add before we pause? No. I would just say I've really enjoyed this conversation, so thank you for it. And actually, the final word I would say is, 1 of the other paths to mastery is to have conversations with people because you learn more by having a conversation with others, learning different perspectives than you do just reading a book is have that conversation to really flesh out your thinking and get other people's thinking. And that to me is the route to mastery, a never ending route. Marvelous. Thank you so much, Hillary. I've also really enjoyed this conversation, but then again, I always enjoy our conversations. So thank you. Thank you very much. You're most welcome. Thank you. You have been listening to Coaching in Conversation, the Mastery Series, a podcast that takes a look at mastery and coaching, what it is, what that means, how do we nurture or cultivate it, and many other interesting questions. You can hear more about coaching education and development at tracy sinclair dot com and follow us on social media. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a rating and a review and also share it with your network to help us expand our reach. Thank you for listening and see you next time.