Hello, my name is Tracy Sinclair and welcome to Coaching in Conversation, the Mastery Series. This series of conversations explores the common Concept of mastery in coaching. And I have the great pleasure of talking with several ICF master certified coaches from around the world to understand what mastery really means to them, both as coaching practitioners and also as human beings. We explore many different perspectives and nuances of this topic, and I hope it is of use and interest to you. As you continue to navigate your own pathway. Hello again, it's Tracy Sinclair here with another episode of Coaching in Conversation, our podcast. And this time we are having another episode linked to our Mastery Series. And I have the absolute pleasure today of talking with Karen Foy, who is, apart from being a wonderful person and a wonderful human being, is someone that I've known and been friendly with for several years. But professionally Karen is also a master certified coach with the ICF. She's been practicing for over 20 years. She also operates as a coaching educator, as a coaching supervisor and mentor coach. So she spends a lot of her time developing coaches at various stages In their career. And she has also been the program director of accredited programs at Henley Business School. Karen has a BA in psychology and a master's of psychology, coaching psychology, sorry from the University of East London. And I have the absolute pleasure of exploring with her her thoughts on mastery, what it means for her. And. How do we get it or access it? So do enjoy. And this episode is called Falling Upwards. Hi, Karen. Thank you so much for joining me today. I've been really looking forward to this apart from just the opportunity to catch up with you as always. But also to hear your perspectives around. This topic, concept of mastery in coaching. So, so to kick us off, please feel free to share anything you would like to, to introduce yourself to, to who's listening. But also I'd love you to share your thoughts when you hear the word mastery. What does that mean to you? I too have been looking forward to this Tracy, so thank you very much. I'm really excited to explore this and I know we chat about this quite a lot. Oh mastery, do you know, it's such a problematic term to me and I've got a strange relationship with this idea of mastery. Because, well, first off, the term is so problematic you know, the whole patriarchy and all of that stuff. But I'm conflicted in that because, you know, I went for my MCC, so what was that about if I, you know, if I've got this problematic term with mastery? I think there's something, if we could get rid of the term. And just think about it. I don't know what the alternative is. I don't know whether you've ever thought about this. We did a bit of research, only, you know, very informal research at Henley, to see if it's a problematic term, what else would you call that stage of your coaching life? You can find anything that was a substitute for it at all. So mastery for me is is more about getting to that wisdom of coaching, get into that, I don't know, more experienced level of coaching that you've been at it for a while. Yeah, that you've put a lot of energy into it and a lot of energy into understanding yourself first and foremost, before you can work with anybody else. But the term to me is really problematic. Well, well, I have to agree on the term. I struggle with it too. I think it evokes all sorts of things primarily that evoke, I guess, a psychological imbalance, a psychological hierarchy in some way. which seems the antithesis of what we're trying to create in coaching. So it's an, it's an anomaly, isn't it? And you were saying that at Henley, you couldn't come up with a better term. I'm just smiling because, and some viewers or listeners, if they've listened to very early podcasts, they might've heard me say this before, but I went on a course when I was preparing for my MCC development, if you like. I went on a retreat rather. That was to do was called a mastery retreat, which was to kind of, you know, I don't know, become masterful . And when we, when we got there, we all just decided that we hated the term mastery. There was almost this mutinous checkin session, contracting a check-in session because we all said, nah, I don't like that term. And we ended up with a working title of mysterious Mystery and. I'm sure that's not an appropriate term for it either, but I see what you mean about the term itself. It doesn't, it doesn't help. You've said a few things in there that are really interesting, Karen. I heard the word wisdom. I heard the word experience. I heard the word energy. And working on yourself. So I'd love to hear a little bit more about all of those things. Let's talk to me a bit more about experience about having had, you know, plenty of experience because, and the reason I'm asking that maybe if I just contextualize it, and this is just an observation as opposed to a judgment. My, my observation is that. Pete, because coaching is growing quite quickly and because it's become quite democratised and there are lots of organisations now that offer big bulk coaching packages where coaches are associates. It feels as though there's going to be an upswell in how many people, how long it takes people to reach the place where they would have enough hours for MCC. So the speed of that trajectory, rather, if I can get my word out, I have a hunch it's going to get shorter than it has been in the past. I may be wrong. So what does that mean vis a vis experience? I think that's such an interesting observation and it's one I've been pondering on. Because If we just take the MCC badge, and I hate the fact that it's a badge and we're all going, you know, like I say, this is the, for me, the conflict I feel that, yeah, I went for the badge but the fact that it is the badge just, I don't know, it gives it this wrong, there's always a race to get what you called that hierarchy. There's a race to get to the top of that hierarchy. And so, there's something about the hours that you put in. Now I know, you know, there's a certain amount of hours you need before you get that problematic badge of master. But hours. We could do two and a half thousand hours of really rubbish coaching. You know, and probably put in a recording that passes muster or whatever to get the badge. But that does, to me, that's not the experience. How quick you get something. It's not really the point if there's something about learning your profession, learning your trade, getting the experience, not just coaching experience, experience of life, and coming up with and exploring ethics and exploring, you know, just coming up against lots of areas that create dilemmas so you understand the depth of it. So for me, there's something about that experience and if whatever, whatever that experience and I'm, I'm really looking and this term is problematic too, but eldership in coaching is really important to me at the moment, thinking about eldership. And there's something about getting to a place, having put the time in and the work in. And then being able to give back as, you know, supporting other people having that breadth and depth of knowledge that you can support the profession. And I think racing through all of the whatever levels they are and getting the hours, you know, just hours to me, I think there's got to be something that, that you know, some kind of demarcation, but I don't know that hours is just it. You know, doing X amount of hours. Because like you say, now, with all of these different approaches to coaching, people can rattle off and get lots of hours of paid coaching. But how do we know that's quality and depth? And, you know, come back to that wisdom. How are they building wisdom from that reflection? You know, it's a bit like, if somebody's going for mentoring for ICF And it's got to be done in no less than three months. I mean, that's a short time into that mentoring to actually learn what's happening, to explore, to experiment and work with it. It's good that there's a, you know, that you can't do it in because I know some people, I probably would have been one of them when I started, who thought, well, let me get it done in three weeks, not three months, because I just want to be better. I want to do this. So I know it comes from a really good place people want to rush through, but we miss so much of the journey, if we rush through. Mm. And you, well, another couple of things, so let's stay, I don't want to take us off a tangent too much. I've got loads of ideas in my head here, but you, you've mentioned wisdom two or three times now. What is that? If only I knew. If only I knew. I'm sure there's a Some academic definition, and I'm a steer away from that, but I think there's something about, it's all the stuff I was saying before about having been there, had the experience of, when I'm, when I'm either mentoring or supervising, I often say to people, I'm only at the stage I'm at now, and I'm not saying that, you know, as I feel like I'm still growing, I feel like I'm still at the beginning, 20 odd years in, because I'm still learning so much. But most of what I've learned is from the things I, you know, I fell foul of, or I didn't get quite right. And so I think we build up wisdom as we go along, if we're reflective enough, and we're willing to learn, and we're willing to admit when. you know, we're perhaps aren't our best or whatever. So I don't know, do you have a definition of wisdom? Yeah, I guess in a way I might get, I'm hesitating because I'm thinking this through because it is complex, isn't it? If I, if I backtrack a bit from that question, I, I have my own perspective on what I think is the relationship between knowledge or awareness and intelligence, in that you might have all the awareness. and knowledge, but if you can't or don't usefully apply or integrate that knowledge, then there may be a lack of intelligence in terms of what you do with it, because what's the point in the data unless the data is usefully applied? So for me, I see a connection between knowledge, data awareness, education, and intelligence, which is that application and integration in a useful, meaningful way. And I see that very mapped out in coaching. You know, we see that in, for me, what is that lovely relationship between say competency seven and eight, where in competency seven, we're, we're seeking to evoke awareness for the client, but then there's something about how is that, how are they going to integrate? If you think of competency eight, the definition being turning insight and awareness into action. It's the meaning making of it. So, if I go with that thinking, how I understand it, there's awareness, there's intelligence. And then there's wisdom. And maybe the wisdom for me, when I think of the word wisdom, I do think of learning through our own experience. And I suppose that takes me to things like reflective practice or, and as you're saying, learning through the things that you Didn't do so well in or, or whatever, but wisdom also for me has something broader is the word of humility is coming up for me a lot. As I think about wisdom, I don't know how that speaks to you, but I'm, I'm, I'm also very struck and I'd love you to say more about the idea of how mature, how mastery for you links to eldership and giving back. So for me, there's a, something in wisdom Isn't that you just keep it all to yourself. Exactly. To know how that resonates with you. Absolutely. Just a thought actually from what, because it was lovely listening to your interpretation, because I absolutely agree. There's something as well around the When we're doing the reflection, we can get just, just in reflection if we don't apply our reflection. So I think I love that about the applying. If I come back in a second to the giving back, because what you reminded me of is one of the, one of the things that, I mean, I'm at the moment, I'm with a colleague, we're, we're doing some writing on this. Another coach that we both know once said to me about their training program and said, We teach mastery from the beginning. And I really Yeah, I really had to think about that and I loved that, that, that was the expression that was being used and I wanted to think, ooh, because at the time I was, as you know, leading the programs at Henley, the accredited programs at Henley, and I wanted to think, ooh, how can we do that? What is it we would need to do? So I really thought about it and then I came back to, you can't, you can't teach mastery from the beginning, or I can't. I'm not, I'm not, Suggesting this other person can't, I can't. And the reason was, I started, I started listening to and reading, I've read it two or three times, a book, Falling Upwards, and I think I probably shared it with you a while back, Falling Upwards by Father Richard Rohr. Now he was talking about life generally, and kind of building on young, young people. Jung's thoughts about the two stages of life and I was thinking about, you know, all the Bob Keegan stuff, everything around development, adult development and child development, and it kind of struck me really hard, and this is this link to wisdom, I think. It struck me really hard that, you know, in the first half of life, so Richard Rohr talks about the first half of life, spiritually, psychologically, whatever. The first half of life, we learn the rules, we learn what we should do, so we learn the competencies, we learn how to apply them, we get the hours in, we get, we get lots of practice and we, we stay within the boundaries of those rules. And in this book, Falling Upward what Richard Rowe talks about is, and some of us get to a second stage of life, not all of us, but some of us get to a second stage of life spiritually. And he said, precipitates us getting to that second stage of life is the fall. So something might happen in life, we might have a, we might become redundant, we might have a, you know, a loss or whatever, but something makes us look at the rules and said it's not all about achieving, getting to, all of that, that it is at the beginning. It's right at the beginning and it's right in coaching that we learn the rules, we learn the models, we learn how to do things, but there's a point where there's a shift. And for me the fall might not be as dramatic as a redundancy, but it might be a, is this all there is? Or we might get stuck with models and just not, we're just not seeing the difference in the changes. I think for me that's when we turn into the wisdom and we can start to loosen up a little bit on the on the rules and become who we were meant to be as coaches and that's when the wisdom kicks in and that I guess then that part of giving back from my perspective that part of giving back is that that wisdom doesn't mean that we need to be achieving anymore. Now, we all still need to run businesses. We're all still business people, but it's not all about us. So first half of life in coaching, we're trying to tell everybody how great we are as coaches. It's all kind of individual we want to achieve and that's where the coming back and wisdom come together for me that in that second half of the coaching life, it's less about getting all the badges to, to promote ourselves But it might be more about how do we support our profession to be the best profession? How do we nurture younger, younger, not in age, if you get what I mean, but less experienced coaches, how do we nurture and support other people? How can we give back in that way? And I suppose I only came to that when I noticed, you know, when it's like you notice something that has a bit of an ouch. And when I see people. out with, you know, very much about themselves, how much they can, you know, some of these what, what would call them promotions about you can, you know, I'll, I'll help you achieve this in so many sessions and all of that. I was noticing that that had a hit for me. I have to think about what is it this, why, why am I feeling so against that? And I think it's because I think that individual necessary. first stage is different. Does that sound too grandiose? I know it sounds very naive in some ways. It's about giving back and maybe I'm just in a fortunate position where I just feel like I just want to give back. I want to support the newer coaches in this stage of my life. I mean, what you're sharing, Karen, really resonates with me. And I, and I, I, the way I think about it is I'm not, I don't have an expectation that all coaches suddenly become, you know, ultra benevolent do gooders and just, you know, give over their whole lives to giving back into society. But I do think there's something around And maybe it's a context thing, it's a systemic thing, maybe it is even a spiritual thing in a professional way, in that Your focus initially is, is very much on that inner circle of you, your skills, your practice, your success, and your client, you know, focusing on the client. And then we go to this idea of context. And it feels as though there's a natural evolution of that, which is. For me, the ripple, the ripple of coaching that at some point you, yes, you are still focused on your own craft and being the best practitioner that you can be, but you're You've also got an interest in the bigger picture of this work. And I mean, for me, how it shows up, I suppose, is in some of the work I do with the Coaching with Conscience initiative that I've set up around how can coaching have impact in social, in social context, for charities or non for profits and things like that. And, or whether it's acting as a supervisor, as you are as well, and a mentor coach and a teacher, you know, there's something about. How can I be involved in this profession outside of my one to one transactions with my coaching, with my client rather, I suppose that's how I think about it. You, you've also said, and you've, you, you said it right at the beginning, but you've kind of alluded back to it. So I want to, want to delve into that a little bit. Is you talked about working on yourself and of course there is, as you've said, this huge. understandable temptation initially to think about the skills, the behaviors, the competencies, how do I get better at this and better at that and do more of this and less of that and all of those things. And I suppose that is part of our professional growth and we have a training and an accreditation and a credentialing system to benchmark all of that along the way. Tell us more about your thoughts on the work we have to do on ourselves. Yeah, I think it's like you, I've the, you know, I've trained hundreds and hundreds of coaches and what I've noticed is the ones that are more willing to really explore and work to get some self awareness, to understand themselves a little bit more, to understand what their biases and triggers are, including absolutely myself. I've really felt like I've needed to go to work on, oh my goodness, what happened there? You know, what, what is the trigger that's happening in me to really notice that? I, I just think those coaches that I've seen coming through whichever system I've been working in, those that are willing to put some work in and to be honest with themselves and really think about themselves and you know, that radical honesty. I think they seem to be, and it is only my view, but they seem to really be able to transform their coaching practice. I find it interesting that, you know, as a profession, if you think about psychotherapy, counseling, all of those things, people are required to spend time in psychotherapy. They're required to be part of the whole system, and we don't do that in coaching. The amount of people that come through and have never been coached, and I just think it's, one, it's a total missed opportunity for people to experience it from the other side. But I just think, you know, if we, how dare we be with people and expect them to be vulnerable with us, to share their foibles, their, the barriers that they're feeling, the limiting beliefs they've got. If we're not willing to explore our own, how dare we sit across from somebody and expect that. So, I think there's something about that, if we can really understand who we are, then we know, because there's I was with on a session with Lawrence Barrett the other day, and he said something that really, you know, it's, it's obvious, it's simple, but it was a really lovely reminder, and he was saying, you know, we have these fantasies as coaches, that we are passive observers. in the, in the conversation. And that we don't impact the conversation at all. And those are fantasies because we do. We influence the conversation and we're not passive. So the more we know about ourselves and what is triggering us, what's gonna, you know, our own, where we want to put ourselves in there. I know I have to watch out constantly that I feel like I was born to teach. That's one of the things I don't mean children and but I'm, you know, around the subjects that I love, which I found out far too late in my life, but I have to watch that I don't get into teaching mode in coaching. And if I had never explored and been honest enough to see that, I could be going around teaching in my sessions, telling people what, you know, what's the latest thinking, but it would be my thinking. Does that make sense? Well, I mean, I couldn't agree more with you, Karen, around this idea of walking our talk in a way of, of having our own coach. I mean, I can't. I also can't understand how someone could really go through coach training. I mean, they are coached, I suppose, when they're coached, have coached training, because that's how we teach, isn't it, with our peer coaching sessions, etc. But It is interesting how many people do come into coach training without having been coached and how there is some sometimes we obviously I'm making a bit of a generalization here, but there are sometimes people who do come into this profession and meet this skill as something that they learn to do to others, with others, to others, for others. Yeah. And therefore they don't matter, which, you know, very much as you're saying. And I agree with, well, of course you matter because the fact that you're there energetically with them is all going to be in the mix, isn't it? That is a more nuanced concept, I think, and it, and that, that is something that, you know, going back to this idea of, can we teach mastery from day one? If there was any way of doing that, it would almost be to try to engender that mindset from day one, wouldn't it? To just say, look, don't, don't think that you don't matter here because you absolutely do. But it's a bit of a paradox, isn't it? Because in some ways, A lot of our training is that the coach is not the important one because they don't have the agenda. It's all about the client. It's client focused, client centered, client, client, client. And so you can, you could easily be forgiven, couldn't you, for thinking, well, of course, it's nothing to do with me. I have to kind of leave myself outside the door. And And so the paradox is that we're then saying, well, no, actually you don't have to do that at all. You have, you have. So it's tricky, isn't it? Yeah. And I think this person that I was saying had mentioned this, Maestro van Willingen, I think that's what they meant. It's about the mindset. I'm sure that's what they were talking about. Is that moving away from doing to being. And that's what I think we can teach from the beginning. But, you know, you're like me, I've been in this game for a while. When I first, my very first coach training. I remember really clearly that we were taught, just like you say, almost you leave yourself at the door and that you, your, the thoughts that you were having, you know, you must get rid of them. You must push them away. They're not useful. You just, like you say, it's the other person and it's, it's their it's their agenda. And of course it is and what they do. But I spend a lot of my time in mentoring, supporting people to understand it's okay, actually what you're thinking, feeling, energetically, emotionally, whatever, may well have some useful snippets for the person you're working with, and then it's back to that partnership. And I think that's the bit, that's where the wisdom comes in. And, and kind of linking to that and needing to know yourself, because you'll have We all have thoughts, intuitions, even I can get really strong thoughts about where I should, you know, what I could put into this conversation, but I need to just check it first. Is this my stuff? Or, you know, it, it might be my stuff, it might be their stuff, but it might be our stuff. that we're creating together, and that's worth talking about. And I think that's where the wisdom comes in. How can we explore? Is this the stuff that we're generating together? Is this useful? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, and, you know, as I'm listening to you, that then seems to offer clarity on why knowing ourselves and working on ourselves. is so important. I, I, I'm going to get this quote wrong cause I can't recall it right now accurately, but there's something that Jung said around, we can only go with our clients as far as we can go ourselves. Yeah. And, and I, I really, I love that because I see it almost as you learn these skills and you get better and better at them, competencies, behaviors, et cetera. And that will take you so far. But what you need is it's the Marshall Goldsmith thing as well of what got you here won't get you there because you'll get to, you'll get so far, but if you want to go further, that's not going to carry you there. You need to take it with you, but you need something else, which is this. You know, this concept of really knowing yourself, and I suppose then, and I'm conscious I'm throwing words in here, so please challenge me, but what was coming up for me was this idea then of how do I manage and navigate myself coming in? How do I manage my emotions? How do I know what's mine and what's not mine, or? And that's, that's where We build and grow wisdom in this through supervision, through reflective practice, through mentoring, just, and, you know, just being and, and noticing what's happening about when, when you are bringing yourself when, when it, oh yeah, I think I brought a bit too much of me there. Oh, what was I trying to do there? But if we're gonna, if we're gonna misquote, because I love misquotes, I know it, I always know the essence of what it was, but I never can get the words right, but, you know, it's back to using Jung again about, you learn all your theories and your, and your techniques and then when you're a cross from another human soul, be just another human soul. And there's something about being able to strip away all of our defences and all of our need. I mean, one of the things I think gets in the way of people, and it got in my way such a lot when I started, was needing to add value in the session. But, you know, need to earn my money. Need to make sure that I've been worth, you know, that I've been a good coach. All of those things are the defences that we put in our way to just be another human soul across my human soul. With the intention of just exploring and, and, you know, and being able to sit in discomfort of not knowing. And that's really hard because most of us through life, I guess, have, have been trained to have answers, to know, to know what it is. I mean, many years ago when Florence Nightingale was around, I was a nurse. You needed to know stuff. You needed to have answers. And it's the opposite of that. in coaching. And more, it's the, more than it's the opposite, we need to be comfortable to be able to know that, oh, this is just because I want to look good. I want to make sure they go away with an aha moment, all of that stuff. I think that's what gets in the way of anybody get into this place, whatever we're calling it. I agree, Karen, and what you're making me think of is my perspective on this when it comes to the use of AI now, which of course is here and is going to continue to be here in increasing levels of, you know, presence in our world is you talked about a human being to human being, a human soul with a human soul and the human presence. That to me. is, is how we navigate as coaches through AI, because AI will do a lot of things, won't it? It will, it will, it will sort of take a whole, a whole layer and layer and layers of what human coaches are probably doing, what's needed is the is is the humanity isn't it is the presence that one soul with another soul so in if anything the case for mark for whatever this word is that we don't call mastery the case for it the need for it is stronger than ever before because that is what only we can bring absolutely i think you're absolutely right and you remind me of You know, we can't, AI is, you know, it's out of the bag. It's, we can't stop it. We can't close it down, but, and nor should we, you know, it's got some great applications. And like you say, for coaching, it's going to take out swathes of, because some of the stuff that is very transactional. I think AI, yeah, do that, because I've always said, if it's just about, you know, when I'm, when people want to work with me as a coach, I often say, if, if it's just about doing bigger, better, faster, don't come to me, because I'm not your person, I'm not really interested. But I think that's what AI will do great. To do the, you know, projects, kind of getting a project moving, keeping going forward, all of that stuff. I think, yeah, that will take out. And that requires us then, like you say, what we know, what we start with won't take us where we need to go. People will be left with, I remember, oh gosh, it was years ago. You might remember about 2016 the Riddler Report that was saying then about the future of coaching and they were saying about there'll be less and less, so at that point it was internal coaching would take over some of the, some of that performance stuff. What would be left would be the more complex cases, so things that we need to get even more clarity around this. The links between therapy and coaching and where, you know, there's no clear boundary and things. But people are going to be wanting, people want coaching, a human to coach them. It's going to be more complex stuff. It's more about their own sense of purpose, well being, all of that stuff. I think, well, I may be proved wrong. I don't know. I think you need a human, human to human for the compassion. That's a, the words you use for humanity. Yeah. I noticed as you, as you say those kinds of things, Karen, it feels quite emotive actually, because, and I agree again, I seem to be agreeing with you a lot today, surprise, surprise. Yeah, you know, I, I think that coaching in itself, then human coaching, human to human coaching has a huge opportunity. It needs to evolve. And of course, with any massive change, some people will go with the new way and others will, won't. But I, I agree with you. I think there's something much deeper, much more complex and purposeful that, The world is crying out for, that the human race is crying out for, around those deeper conversations of purpose and meaning and connection and who they, who I am and, you know, all of those things that, that is a, that, that could, that to me is the gift that we, you know, we could be giving. We could be, we could be part of. And of course a gift that we need too for ourselves. Absolutely. In terms of the case for us being coached. I'm mindful of the time we could be chatting. I know all, all the rest of the day and into the weekend. Before we finish, is there anything else, Karen, that you'd like to share with those who are listening? Maybe anything around You know, if there was a piece of wisdom, a piece of eldership that you would like to share from your life experience as a coach or beyond, cause you're not only a coach, of course, you're many things. What is it that you would like to offer up? Well, I suppose, Tracey, is going back to what, you know, we talked about quite early on in this conversation, and I was saying about my naivety around the giving back, but I often get asked by people about, you know, Coaches who have just gone through training and want to set up a business and, and they often say, you know, how can I get, how can I establish my business? How can I get business? How can I build myself up as a coach? And I often laugh with them and say, you're coming to the worst marketeer in the world because I'm rubbish at it. I'm rubbish at business building. So I can't offer you anything in that other than I would say this giving back has been the thing that has been the best thread for me throughout life generally but certainly in my coaching career. That You know, if we have the spirit of an open spirit of supporting, collaborating, supporting other people in the profession and beyond, I think that's the thing that builds our credibility in the, in the profession. It builds our status, if you like. I don't feel that I've particularly got a status in the, in the profession, but it builds our, our brand of That giving back for me, it's been the place I've always given without any expectation of getting something back. So if somebody asks me to help, I'll help if you know, I, I don't know. I've, you know, if you, if you give back in the community, for example, volunteering, you know, volunteering in any of your professional bodies, supporting other coaches, supporting their research, supporting whatever they're doing. I've found when I've done that, without any expectation, it comes back tenfold. You know, people support that. I don't know whether that's wisdom or not, it's just, it's just my thinking around. If you, if we want coaching, this is going to sound very cheesy. My family would be ashamed of me because it's so cheesy, but if we want coaching to be a force for good in the world. Then we've got to, we've got to role model that, and part of the way we can role model that is support our colleagues, support each other, be respectful of each other you know, not stealing each other's ideas and thoughts and words and all of that stuff, but, but we can also give back. I'm off the cheese board now. Well, thank you so much, Karen, as always, it's such a pleasure and a delight to talk with you. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I'm sure our listeners will be really taking away more than a few ideas here on what this means for them, which is the whole purpose of this. I guess that's part of what we're trying to do with this is to give back in some way to give some thoughts and perspectives to evoke awareness around. What this means for us. Thank you. It's been a real delight and a privilege. And thank you in that spirit for everything you do for the coaching profession. I know you've done so much. No, thank you. Well, that's my pleasure too. So it's yeah, it's a lovely, a lovely thing to be involved in. So, well, thank you. And we'll speak again. Great. You have been listening to Coaching in Conversation, the Mastery Series. A podcast that takes a look at mastery and coaching. What it is, what that means, how do we nurture or cultivate it, and many other interesting questions. You can hear more about coaching education and development at tracysinclair. com and follow us on social media. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a rating and a review. And also share it with your network to help us expand our reach. Thank you for listening and see you next time.