Hello. My name is Tracy Sinclair. Welcome to Coaching in Conversation. Coaching in Conversation is a chance to discuss and explore, not just how we can keep developing and maturing. Coaching in Conversation is a chance to discuss and explore, not just how we can keep developing and maturing. Hello everyone, it's me, Kyrk, and I'm here to share some of my own thoughts on these topics. And we will also hear from some great guests from around the world who bring their unique experience and perspectives. Hello everyone, it's Tracy Sinclair here with another episode of Coaching in Conversation. Today, I had the great opportunity to have a conversation with Dr. Jane King, who was a GP in the NHS in the UK for over 30 years. as well as being a mentor within the healthcare system and a GP appraiser. And I first got to know Jane in 2022 oh sorry, before that actually, in 2019, just before the pandemic. When Jane trained with us as a coach and she now has gained her ACC credential, and in fact is currently renewing that credential. And since her retirement from GP practice, Jane has moved into the world of coaching. She also, and I must give a huge acknowledgement for for this, is that she supports one of our other colleagues, Jillian, in our Coach Advancement Alumni Book Club. So Jillian and Jane run our book club. So a little plug there to any of our alumni community who would like to participate in that, you are most welcome. The conversation that I'm having with Jane is, is a beautiful one actually. It's very much around the work that Jane is moving into, which is working with people or their family members who are experiencing significant illness, perhaps critical illness, perhaps life threatening illness, and she is supporting them and their family members as they go through these challenging phases of life. And even more so, Jane is starting to explore and move into the space of how can coaching also be useful for people as they move more towards the end of their lives. And as you will see and hear, hopefully, from the conversation with Jane, Even though this is a difficult space to be working in, or a challenging space, perhaps complex space to be working in for herself and her clients perhaps, there is also something very uplifting and very purposeful around life generally in the work that she's doing, which I think you will very much hear coming through. So this episode is called Finding the Beauty and the Joy. And I really hope that you not only enjoy our conversation, but that you Find something meaningful in it for you as well. Thank you. Well, Jane, thank you so much for joining me on this episode. I've been really looking forward to our conversation for several reasons. And I guess. The first thing would be a much more general question as someone who has spent a good chunk of their professional life being a doctor, a general practitioner in the community. What brought you into coaching in the first place? Well I'd been a GP for probably best part of 30 years when I retired two years ago, and it would have been in a few years with the run up to that and as well as being a general practitioner. I was also a sexual health trainer. I was a GP appraiser. I did, I did do a mentoring course, but I can't honestly say I did a lot of mentoring, but through the appraisal service and through things that are being offered within general practice to encourage us GPs to diversify a bit, and it was to help our wellbeing as well. We were offered opportunities and opportunity arose for me to consider coaching. And in fact, it was on my mentoring course where one of the colleagues on the course suggested, they said, why don't you do coaching? You'd be a great coach. I said, I didn't quite know what they meant. So I explored that and through another colleague who was also interested in doing it I signed up for coaching advancement and I must admit when I got into module one, I thought, I don't know what I'm doing here. Really out of my comfort zone, but something clicked in module two, the second section, it really did click. I remember. And I distinctly remember, and I still remember it. I still remember this, Tracy, is trust the process. Don't, don't think it, trust the process. And the more I've done over the last, that was, gosh 2019, 20, we were just, just going into the pandemic. So I remember we were finishing the course and we did a, it was a face to face course. And then literally coming back on that ferry and everything got locked down. And so we came back in the February, then everything changed in the March. And for me, my working life dramatically changed as well. Things very much went to Zoom. Went to a lot more, less patient facing work, which if I'm honest, I didn't enjoy. I missed the personal contact with patients. I missed knowing my patients as well and knowing what would happen. It was a very different way of working but it was what it was. So I had to get used to grappling with consultations on videos, deciding whether to pull people in or whether I, I could manage them at home. And we were doing home visits. We were going out and seeing people. I think it just wasn't as visible perhaps to the general public. So all through the pandemic, I did my usual job in the usual way. And alongside it, I was coaching on my, I had a couple of days free each week, so I decided to go part time with my run up to retirement, so I started coaching mostly other coaches at that stage, but then evolved into doing some group coaching with a group of GPs coaching some nurses during the pandemic. Who, who wanted that and the GP colleague and I reached out to the local hospital and found out there were some people there who wanted coaching as well. We did little bits of coaching at that stage and then came retirement. And for me, in retrospect, looking back now, two and a half years ago, I think it's been much more of a significant transition than I thought it was going to be. Retired when I was 60, knowing I still had. more in me and I still had energy and wished to do things and I had decided the coaching would be part of my Perry retirement plan. My husband and I, we even had a dream, we'd go off abroad and I could coach on zoom and I could coach wherever I was in the world. Well, we didn't, we decided to stay put in the UK, but I still wanted to carry on my coaching. I. I think what I realized is from a personal point of view, having those coaching conversations is what I love most about general practice. If I flip back to what I really loved about that, it was patient doctor contact. It was sitting there with somebody helping and supporting them to work through whatever their difficulties might be. And coaching, certainly on a personal level is filling that gap. And I think I'm a good listener. I think I communicate well with people and that was something which I felt I could bring into the coaching space. Lots of things were ticked for me, whether it was ethics, confidentiality, they're all things I was comfortable with, but I think mostly for me, it was having those difficult conversations. So I've had 30 years of sometimes being in very uncomfortable conversations uncomfortable for the patient rather than me. And it's not an area that I felt it's an area where I'm happy to go back to. I think it's an area where I felt I, I wanted to go back to as well. Interesting, interesting. And although you have now retired and we'll talk a bit more in a moment about what you're now doing with coaching in, in retirement per se. As a general practitioner for such a long time, we know that the coaching is now very much. A hot topic in healthcare as well. It's a huge opportunity in that area of our society to bring coaching. What, what is your perspectives particularly around the GP community, around how coaching skills could equip, you know, more suitably equip a GP to handle their, their patient work, and also perhaps, I'm conscious I'm asking two questions at once here, but, but also about GPs being in receipt of coaching, because that's not, that's a tough role, isn't it? You know, as we know, GPs are very under a lot of pressure and strain, etc. So what are your perspectives around the potential for that profession, that particular role within the healthcare profession? Yeah, I think, I think there's two strands there. I think that The receiving coaching whether it's GPs, nurses or staff there has been coaching within the NHS for many years. It's not something that gets, as far as I'm aware, widely accessed, although that's partly, that was partly my sort of springboard for coaching because I actually did experience having coaching. myself, I think in our practice of seven doctors, six of us jumped at it when we were offered free coaching. And for me, I'd never experienced that. I'd never met a coach before. So this would have been, well, let's say six or seven years ago, I suppose. So it was for me then thinking, why wasn't this there before? Well, it was there, but I think it wasn't filtering out into perhaps general practice as much as it might've been within hospital settings. Certainly leadership programs. So I'm aware of colleagues who've done leadership program who have developed sort of coaching skills aligned with that. To help them come back and manage teams or sit on sort of strategic commissioning boards, those, those sorts of things. So I think from a receiving point of view, there's definitely a place for that. And certainly I'm not a team coach, but I'm aware that there is. colleagues who can do team coaching. There's a huge a huge sort of area there where, you know, whether that's supporting teams within the practices to deliver the patient care. The other side of the thing with patients since when I did my coach training, I was trying so hard not to coach my patients when I went back, but I found I was saying things perhaps I used to say. So I realized perhaps some coaching skill had been there all along, whether it was the listening, whether it was the. Sitting back and maybe not leading too much although I still struggle to keep my doctor hat off some of the time to not guide people. So I think with patients, and there are, as I know, and there were before I left, wellbeing coaches in practices, that these would be people trained with coaching skills to partner patients, whether it's to deal with any sort of chronic health conditions that they had. So they're embedded there and that's, that's for patient care. I think. I think it's not as accepted that it should be something which could be on offer to every single member of staff and every single patient. But then that's perhaps a big ask. I'm aware that particularly for supporting doctors and healthcare workers in secondary care, so that's hospitals and other settings, they decided, I think a year or so ago, to Cut the well being budget that would support all these services. Just cut it. So there was a huge outcry and it's been reinstated because I think they the powers that be realized that the secondary care staff were struggling enough without taking away the little. So well being support they had. Yeah. Trying to think what else. Another thing I was involved in actually, I might just touch on slightly, which it was part of the appraisal service. I got involved with a project called Thinking Pit Stops. Which was run by the West Six Appraisal Service. And it's it was based on Nancy Klein's Time to Think. And the pit stops were literally a la the the Formula One race guys. They're coming in, they've got like two minutes to sort of change everything, refuel, off they go again. And it was to try and provide healthcare workers with literally 10 minutes of thinking time in their working day. This could be delivered in an A& E department or some other setting. Where you would ask, it was scripted, so it wasn't, you couldn't call it so strictly coaching, but it really had a scripted questions. What do you think or feel or want to say? And they didn't have to speak, but they had eight minutes of thinking time and you didn't interrupt them at all. And it was only when they stopped you asked the question, very powerful, very powerful. It was something that was delivered, which wasn't perhaps coaching, but it just providing some perhaps coaching skills and a bit of coaching conversation into their working day. So that was an interesting thing to be involved with as well, which I think is still running. I think I'm not, I'm obviously not involved with it anymore. So I did try that in my, GP practice a little bit. I'm not sure that they would still be doing that now, but it's something which I think was certainly for the it was being used much more in the hospital settings for what I can gather. So let's Let's move then into more about what you're doing now. I know that you've shared with me when we were talking before we started our, our podcast here around some of the work that you're doing within the charitable space, within cancer charities and potentially moving into the hospice environment. Tell us about the work that you're, you're now drawn to and that you're now exploring and developing. I think when I, when I did the business development course, actually, I think it was last year, I was keen to try and work out where my passion, where my joy was, told myself I wouldn't be stepping back into the NHS. I thought I would be trying to find something new and different, but it's interesting what's drawn me back. And in fact, it a coincidence, a sort of social meeting with somebody. Who when we were discussing what she did and this was a lady who'd partly set up this cancer charity and they use coaches. Coaching is embedded in what they do on a voluntary basis. So when she heard I was a coach, she said, would you be interested? So the National Charity, it's a very small one, but it's it's something I do on a very ad hoc basis for patients who have brain cancer or their caregivers, families, whoever, whoever would like to participate in the coaching. It's coaching conversations. It's very, it's very fluid. It's very much based on what they want and it's to try and empower them to thrive rather than just survive. So thriving being the sort of the main, the main sort of aim and coping with the sort of overwhelm, the chaos that happens and Realizing that they've got a sort of new normal to get used to and how they adjust themselves to that. And it's absolutely fascinated me how much coach you can sit there. So having coach colleagues who work in the corporate world, it seems so, so different. So these are not people going for big games, promotions big, but there are people dealing with changes in their lives, which I think all of us as coaches will be coaching people who are dealing with life events, even if they're in a corporate world, you know, they may well be dealing with bereavements or traumas or lots of jobs. There's a lot of loss and grief. Bereavement work that coaching could be getting involved with. I think it doesn't have to be cancelled or even death related. I mean, enormous acknowledgement, Jane, and thank you for, for doing that work. I mean, it sounds beautiful in a way to, to be able to have those kinds of conversations, because as you say, these people might not be going for their next career change, you know, that's, Probably in many cases for some of them who are the patients not part of what is accessible to them right now. But nonetheless, they're going through life changes that are very impactful. So a couple of things struck me about what you were saying. First of all, you, you highlighted coaching conversations as opposed to structured coaching packages. Would you say a little bit more about that? I think the conversations are both. easier for the people I'm coaching. There may be something too structured. It's, I think, from their point of view, they need to find that safe space where they can share what they want to share. And for some of them, perhaps they don't want to work hard in that session on a name. So some of them may just want that space just to hold something. And I think that may not align with perhaps Which in packages or having a goal at the end of it all. But if there's a shift in their perspective, their thinking or where they feel they're at with a dilemma or, or having their own conversation about where they're at, then I think coaching compensation for me, sits far more comfortably than some sort of package. I think also I've had to go with the flow with sessions as well. So it's, It's not something where I say, right, we need to book this in monthly. We just have to fit in with what's wanted. We have to fit in with people's symptoms, how they are, how their fatigue is, how. There's a whole catalogue of things that affect how they are. So I can be, try to be as present as possible as a coach. It's very difficult sometimes for the coachee or the client to be in a similar place. You know, they, I have to allow them to use that space as they want. And for some of them it's deciding whether coaching is even the right thing. So having that little alarm bell, if perhaps. I'm not the right person, whether they need more specialist help or whether they need counseling, that sort of thing. So it's, it feels very different and it does step me back slightly into, I suppose, the multi pathways to where as a GP, you know, juggling lots of different things. So in a way I think that experience has put me in good stead for how I'm, how I'm working now with the coaching. And, and yes, I do need my, my coaching sort of standards. Because I need to be sure that there's. a good outcome. So it is about outcomes and we do use the GROW model in the charity and we do work towards, we try and pin down what they, that they do quality measures. So we know that quality measures at the beginning are measured at the end of the sessions as well. But I wouldn't say, I was going to say, it's not so much I wouldn't ask the same questions because I do, I do ask the same questions. What have they learned about the session? What have they learned about themselves? You know, where is that going to take them? It's very, very similar. It is very similar in lots of ways. And it's dealing with trauma. I was reading something about trauma today and how the impact that has on us and how we are. I think trauma of any type, how that changes how we are in the world and how we, how it affects our behavior in a situation. So, so yes, this this charity seems to sit with where I am at the moment. And I think in the big scheme of things, I'm on a personal level, want to do something else with my time. Now I'm retired. I, you know, we've got plans to travel, my husband and I, but equally I wanted to volunteer in some way. And I will, I will find something, our local hospice, whether it's a coaching hat or not, I'm not sure at this stage, but I'm, I'm exploring what's available up there because I think conversations, and I know there's lots, lots being said about having having conversations about dying and we don't have those conversations very much and whether that's a coaching topic or not, or whether it's certainly important when people are facing difficult times. And I wanted to make plans. I think that's the one thing structured I'm seeing in the coaching sessions. People do want to make plans. They want to put things in place. They want to make sure they put things into their days and that they're sort of living the best life they can. Gosh, I mean, I've probably got about 19 different questions now flying in my head, Jane, but, and I'd like to, there's probably two or three key areas I'd love to just explore a little bit more with you. One is a reflection that on what you've shared around the concept of a goal for coaching. In that you know, we can sometimes, can't we, as coaches think that the goal is something that defines the content or the topic that they want to talk about, that has some kind of direction to it. And yet, actually, Is that really the goal that we're looking for? It could be, but there's also another layer or facet to goal, which is, what is my goal for how I spend this time? The container of this time that I have with this other person, rather than what is my goal, you know, in terms of what I want to do about my health and fitness or my next job or whatever it is. There's something very immediate, isn't there, around, I have this container of time, this opportunity of time with someone. What is the best use of that time for me? And that seems to be the much more significant framing for this with the kinds of people that you're working with, because those traditional orthodox goals, if we want to call them that, are not really relevant or accessible to them right now. What's accessible and relevant for them is, What do I need right now in this moment, given the way my world is right now, isn't it? And what struck me was very much around this, you know, thriving versus surviving. When you're working with people who are going through either a critical illness themselves, or someone very close to them is. then life gets very much grounded in the present, isn't it? In a difficult way, perhaps sometimes. We, we can't even think about next week or next year or next whenever. We don't even know if there will be one. And so what is needed right now and being able to be utterly present with that feels supremely important. Yeah, I'd agree. It's, and I think, I think for the people I've been involved with, it's. It's, it is taking back some control of the situation as well, you know, and realizing even in the midst of what they're going through, they do have choices and it's trying to sort of enable them to see that. And as you were just talking then, it was, I just popped into my head again, thinking it's that thinking time, it's holding that space for them to be able to think about what's most important for them at this stage in their lives. And to think about the possibilities of where they can go with what they're thinking. And, and new thinking does come out, you know, it's not, it's not all, not all bad stuff. It's not all sad stuff. It's yeah, there's often some great things that are coming out of the conversations I've been having. Yeah, I can, I can, I can so imagine that, you know, there is I know in my own life, whenever I've experienced anything that's, you know, very close to grief or actual grief and loss and things, there is. There are moments of joy and laughter that can be found in there too, which of course is as my lovely dad would have said, life's rich tapestry of it's all, it's all there. Yeah. Just a couple of other things that are really sitting with me, Jane, as you talked about the fact that quite understandably, when you're dealing with people who are experiencing cancer or any other critical illness and their close members of their family, et cetera, or their friends. We are starting as coaches to lean into spaces such as loss, grief, trauma, fear, in perhaps a slightly bigger way than we might do in a traditional coaching engagement about someone's career. Some people listening to this might say, well, as a GP, you are better equipped to deal with that as a, as a historical GP, you're, you're better equipped to deal with that. I just wonder what your perspective on that is. Is that, is that true or can we, can we all touch into that space? I think yes, I think as coaches that's very possible. I think, I think I know that my experience has put me on a better footing for that because I'm, I'm comfortable having those uncomfortable conversations and being with people and talking. openly about death and grief and what's going to happen. I did attend I did attend a webinar not too long ago on grief, bereavement coaching. And it's, I think what I took away from it mostly and what the other coaches none of them who were medical took away there were some former coaches there was, was about use of language and use of words and. And, and I suppose as in the general public being too frightened to say certain things crossing the road rather than speaking to somebody when they're, when they're bereaved or you don't know what to say, you don't say anything. So use of language and being comfortable using words that your, that your client or coach is going to be using as well. It's traditional coaching in lots of ways. It's just, it's just matching what they want and going in their direction. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. And I, and I mean, you know, I'm also mindful that we of course have an ethical boundary around when something is not coaching and when it does become more therapeutic. And of course that we know that that's an important boundary that we have to navigate, but nonetheless. That does not preclude coaching from being enormously valuable to people who are at that rougher edge of their lives. Where coaching can still be a hugely beneficial and appropriate way of working and engaging with someone. And I think, I think if, if it feels uncomfortable in coaching, it's usually, I think if we listen to our little alarm bells and think, I'm not sure where I am with this, could this person perhaps benefit from counselling, particularly if they're very distressed or the emotions are just too much for them to even, you know, I hope in the coaching session, I would think most coaches would, would learn to acknowledge that. I think for me, it's important. I don't put a sort of counseling hat on. I'm not a trained counselor. I never have been, but I've been comfortable talking to people. And I think that's where it still sits with me. I can listen. I can reflect back what they're saying and help them try and develop a strategy to move forwards from that. And I think that's all, you know, that's where coaching can naturally sit. CoachingBadminton. com And it doesn't have to be therapeutic to help people do that and I've certainly come across a situation with a cancer charity where I've had to hand somebody back for sort of more emotional support because I'm not the right person and there's people with more skills than me to provide that for them. So I think knowing those boundaries, and I think, as you say, we have that ethical responsibility not to be the, you know, we're not the fixers, not the step in and help in any way. So being very sure of our own boundaries as coaches as well. Yeah, yeah, I guess and what's coming up for me as you say that is two things really is one is, Something that I say to everyone anyway, including myself, is to slow down, is that this feels like a space of working where we need to go even more carefully to, so that we know how to cross the road and speak to someone, to use your metaphor, you know, rather than not speak to them and not cross the road. But it's, it's going gently and slowly and carefully, isn't it? So that we're, we're just having that time to check in with what is our intuition saying to us so that we can use that as a barometer to guide, you know, how we, how we feel the conversation is going. And the other thing that was coming up for me, and I'm not I don't want to, to, to presume here and say, well, because you're a GP, you've got a hardened skin to things. Although I'm sure that skin develops over time, but there is something here, isn't there? About the practitioner, the coach holding their boundaries for their own self care when you are dealing with things, situations where you, your, your own empathy energy could really go into overdrive. You know, how do you, how do you stay grounded and supported and nourished yourself? You know, so I was just thinking things like supervision is really important anyway, but, but really important in those kinds of things. Absolutely. And when I think about it, the The psychological and the counseling services all have supervision, always have done over the years. Yeah. And what I think what I used to do in, yeah, we, I would talk to other doctors. You know, there was no, there was, we didn't have supervisors as such we could go to. We would just look to more senior people to do it. So it was very much a sort of learn on the job when I think back on that. And I think as a coach, I have learned the importance of supervision. When, and again, just testing where you are with your own boundaries, your own self care as a coach as well, being, being crucial and, and yes, you and you have to develop that skin. It's, it's it's not something I consciously did if I think about it, but you have to, but you can't take things home with you, but you do because you do, you have to care about what you do and who you're seeing. So it's, you know, how, how do you keep that skin? So that you're the empathetic doctor or coach, as opposed to the person who just switches off and doesn't care. So it, it is, it is something that you can cultivate, I think, if you're, if you put your mind to it. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And maybe then the place to, to, to just explore a little bit next is, is almost that next phase that you've alluded to a little bit in someone's Life cycle, which is when that person is in a place where perhaps their life does have a, you know, a timeline. Well, I guess all of our lives have got a timeline haven't they but, but where someone's prognosis is such that there is a shorter timeline or a clearer timeline on. on, on how their life is going to be. And, you know, you've mentioned that perhaps you might start exploring working in the hospice environment. And I know that I've heard pockets in the system of this term of end of life coaching that is surfacing as a, as a space. Where coaching can really add value. What does all of that mean for you at the moment, Jane? I think it's, I think to be frank, it's something I'm exploring. I'm not aware of it being embedded into our palliative care services, certainly not the ones I've worked in. It's, I think I need to explore where that would be. I mean, hospices are not places where necessarily people don't spend their last few days. Of course, some do. It's very much a revolving door and people go in and participate in the services often for years. So there's ample opportunities for coaching to be part of those journeys. But in those There's more there's more end, end of lifetimes. I'm not, if I'm honest, I'm not quite sure how how that would fit in or what that would look like. I'm very aware that in the United States, it's a big it's a very much a part of coaching there. They do end of life and bereavement coaching. They've even got ICF certificate courses you can do which I haven't dipped into or looked at. Thanks. And I'm not sure I need to do a course to do, to do end of life coaching, but it's something, it's something to look at. Is it something that is needed? I suppose that's my first question. Is a coach the person who should be there towards the end or has that person got other people who are more important in their lives? But from what I've read, it's more of a sort of partner who can be there on the journey as long as that person wants them to be a partner. And then they could step away when that person perhaps wants family or friends or, you know, more in their lives and perhaps their coach or somebody else. So it's, it's, from what I've read, it's more a partner on that journey there to support and offer them that thinking time and space rather than diving in with in depth coaching in their last days of life, which obviously isn't appropriate, not what they'd want. I would hope if it's all been done well beforehand, it, the coaching could have led them. to develop, and this is the whole point, a good end of life care plan, which is what the hospice is. One of their main aims is about making sure we have those conversations about death and even before we've got our cancer, how do we want things to be? How do you want things to look? And maybe some of those people won't need coaching, but some people have never come across it. They don't know how helpful it can be to them when they're making, when they want time to make those plans. That's the one thing that struck me. with the Brain Cancer Charity, people are wanting to put things in place. And yes, there is support through the through the charities and the nursing services and the other services within hospices and palliative care, but sometimes it isn't. And, and I think It's trying to reach the people who don't know about it, who don't know what's on offer. Yeah. I mean, it feels as though there is such an enormous opportunity here for, for bringing coaching into a part of our lives and a part of our society where it. Could be so valuable, just so deeply valuable you know, in a different context to what we would traditionally think of coaching in. And you said a couple of things a few times, actually, that have really resonated with me about what's important about this work, which is partnering and choice. And we, we use those terms a lot, don't we? You know, in regular coaching. And yet, it's often, perhaps, I don't know, maybe I'm just assuming, that, that sometimes those things can tend to get a little bit lost. When we're very ill or life is coming to a conclusion where almost we feel that choice is taken away, or we don't even feel we should have that choice anymore, or we don't have that sense of partnering around how we would like things to be in whatever context that might be. And of course we know those two qualities of choice, keeping the client a choice. And partnering with the client, there are two characteristics that seem to be really, really present in what you are talking about today. Even going back to this idea of the goal, partnering with the client around the goal. The goal isn't necessarily to think about this thing they want to make happen in six months time. It's more about what do I need to use this space for right now? And I think whether it's legacies, Planning for how things are going to be, actually planning how you're going to be with your family and friends around you as well, you know, planning how you want your week's months to look like. It's, it's, it's something we don't think about until it's honest. And I think the more people can make those choices a bit earlier in the journey and have that time and opportunity, the more they can thrive and get the most out of what they're doing in their lives. Yeah, I mean, I know that death and thinking and talking about death is not one of the most comfortable things in our societies, at least not in our Western society and some others, perhaps a little bit more. And yet it feels as I'm talking to you, I feel actually an uplift in, in that sense of, but that's a beautiful part of how we can make the very best of all of our lives. To, to actually feel as though we are actively engaged in all aspects of our life, even when we come to those difficult periods, finding the beauty and the joy, even when things are not great. Yeah. And, and to that, I'm just mindful, we're probably getting close to the, to the conclusion of our time today, at least Jane, but I'd love to, you know, focusing in on the beauty and the joy. Okay. Given that a lot of the work that you're doing is in that, that space of. Significant illness and potentially moving into loss and bereavement and end of life, etc. Where do you find the beauty and the joy? What, what, what is it about this that brings, brings that to you and, and, you know, tap, how it taps into your purpose or your values? I think for me, it's that human connection. I think I've, I've seen it from birth, having witnessed births. I remember the very first time I saw a baby being born and I thought, absolutely, my goodness, what, you know, it was one of those, and I've seen people right at the end. And, and I think it's making connections with people and having that realization that we're all human beings and we can all we can all enjoy where we are in our worlds. And for some people who. Yes, there's always the ups and downs, but we can all be there to support, guide and help each other. So I think that's where my purpose has come from. And I think that's, that is definitely the bit I've missed was retiring. And, and I think I want my coaching to land in a place where I know it's going to hopefully give value to others. And I can, I certainly get something back from it. Well, I'm glad you do because I'm absolutely certain it does give value to others, Jane. So so thank you again for, for the work that you're doing and also for, for coming and spending time with me here talking about it. I've really, I've learned a lot. It's been very Uplifting, very insightful to listen to what you're saying. And I've got huge respect for the work that you're doing. And I'm sure everyone listening to this is going to take something really meaningful from it too. Thank you. It's been a pleasure. Thank you. Anything else that you'd like to just comment on before we pause? I think the only thing that I've been learning in the last year or two is it never ceases to amaze me where coaching can land and what it can do. I think we just have to have our eyes open to what's possible. Absolutely. Well, here's to keep, here's to keeping our eyes open and perhaps our hearts and minds as well. Absolutely. Yeah. Marvelous. Thank you so much, Jane. Thank you, Tracy. I've been listening to Coaching in Conversation by Tracy Sinclair, a podcast aimed at exploring how coaching is a vehicle for human development in today's and tomorrow's world. You can learn more about coach training and development@tracysinclair.com and follow us on social media. If you enjoyed this podcast, please leave a rating and review and also share it with your networks to help us expand our reach. Thank you for listening and see you next time.