Hello, my name is Tracy Sinclair. Welcome to Coaching and Conversation. Coaching in Conversation is a chance to discuss and explore, not just how we can keep developing. And ensuring as poach practitioners, but also to consider how coaching is evolving and its future potential and place as a powerful vehicle for human development in today's and tomorrow's world. I'll be sharing some of my own thoughts on these topics. And we will also hear from some great guests from around the world who bring their unique experience and perspectives. Hi everyone, it's Tracy Sinclair here with another episode of Coaching in Conversation. This time, I am delighted to offer you another episode with a great colleague, Fay Manville. And we had the pleasure of talking together previously around the work that she does with horses and equine facilitation. And that episode, if you're interested in listening to it, is number 23, I believe called Horses. Don't Lie. Fay is a very experienced coach, and apart from having her PCC credential and a Master's in coaching and behavioral change, she also has many related coaching qualifications, including being a supervisor, a mentor coach. She's trained in systemic coaching, NLP, transactional analysis clinical hypnotherapy. Climate change and many, many other things. And one of the things that is very dear to FA Heart is her work with horses as a horse owner herself and horse rider. And in our last conversation, we found that there were so many other things that we could discuss that were. Really, really relevant to our work as coaches working with human beings and how much we can learn from horses and how they communicate. So I do hope that you really enjoy this episode. It was great fun talking to Fay about this. And this episode is called Coaching in the Energetic Field. Well, Fay, I've been looking forward to this enormously. We did a wonderful episode of Coaching and Conversation episode 23 as we just recovered or remembered rather for those who are interested called horses don't lie because of the amazing work that you do with horses. And we remembered at the time that there were lots of other things that we could. Have also spoken about. So we are coming back to speak about a few more. Let's see where that takes us today. And one of the things that I know you want to elaborate on is the concept of presence and how we can learn more deeply around being present as coaches, perhaps even as human beings. Either from working with horses or from those who do work with horses. So I'll, that's enough from me for now. I'd love to just hand over to you to take us where you would like to with this. Thank you. You are handing over the reins. I love that. Okay. We started with the metaphor, we'll start with the metaphor already. Let's with me to go on. Yeah. Brilliant. Yeah, so there was lots of. There was lots of different threads where we could have explored in the last episode that we did together anyway. And it got me thinking about the depth of presence in our coaching relationships and how horses can help us to to. Really, like, feel what it's like to be present. To be present. To be present. Because it's not something that you do as a coach. It is something you become through your, through your being. And what I notice when I'm with the horses is that they invite me to be present in. A deeper way than perhaps I am day to day. Having said that, what I'd like to explore is how, how we can like look at bridging the gap from the horse experiences and bring that into our everyday coaching. So that's really the essence of the conversation in my mind as we start and. Where we end up. Let's see, let's see. And I, and I'm very struck by something you just said there about how presence isn't something we do, it's something we become. Hmm. Which feels just really important to, to just note there around how so much of this. And I know you're going to talk more about energy, et cetera, but so much of the energy to do with presence is, is a being thing. Yeah. As opposed to a doing thing. Yes. And I think when I reflect on the coaching competencies and how we, how we observe presence. It's very much in that being space. So the depth of connection with the client, the, the depth of exploration in the client's wholeness of who they are. It's those, those things are slightly intangible, but are noticeable when they're present. And even the concept of, of energy. So we talk about noticing energy shifts, but kind of pulling, pulling that apart, like what, what does that, what does that mean? And for me, thinking about energy in that way, a really, I guess accessible way of understanding what, what energy is, is like. Imagine that you walk into a room and there's just been an argument and you might not know what the argument was about, but you're aware that something's happened because you can feel it. And those are the kind of energy shifts that, that we notice as, as human beings, but perhaps aren't always consciously aware of. And by becoming more consciously aware of the energy that we are bringing into spaces we can have much more of a. Transformative impact on working with our clients. So if I were to take that energy of the argument into the stables with me, for example, Georgie would very much pick up on that, on that energy of conflict and argument, because it wouldn't be congruent to how I am in my, in my being with her. So horses will elicit those. Those energy patterns or shifts that perhaps we haven't noticed have, have happened to us. And I suppose bringing that back into the coaching space, as coaches, what that invites us to do is become much more aware of our, of our energy. So perhaps it might be. Because not everybody's going to have the privilege of being able to drop by and talk to their horse before every coaching session. It might be taking a few minutes to do a body scan, for example, and noticing, well, how is my energy showing up today? What, what am I noticing? Where are there areas of, of tension or perhaps frustration and noticing that? With the view of view, you know, being able to let it go, but without, without judgment. Mm-hmm. I think I just went down a different path. Well, what, what was coming up for me there was and please, please correct me, I'm, if I'm off please here, but what I'm, what I'm hearing you say, if I've understood this correctly, is that the horse. Is more consciously aware of your energy than perhaps we as human beings sometimes are of our energy. So you've learned from Georgie, your horse. To be more aware because she gives you that feedback. She gives you the feedback that your energy is a certain way. So if you did take that energy of an argument to her, you'd get a response or reaction from her. So would it, would it be fair to say then that she has taught you to become more consciously aware of your energy? Yes, that would be very fair to say. So Georgie responds to me as any other horse would through energy, through intent through congruence. And when all of those things are aligned, then things flow easily with the horse, and the horse will respond. Positively to you when they're misaligned, then the connection and you can almost feel the connection breaking. They become disinterested or yeah, will wanna go and explore something else or not be so close to you.'cause their instincts are to seek out the, the easiest way of, of being. So if the easiest way of being is around a human who is, who is present and not interfering with their own energy, then they'll be with you. But if you are bringing sort of that, let's say that argumentative energy with you into, to the art, that's not gonna feel nice to the horse. So they're likely will move away from you or yeah, not, not. So aligned to, aligned the things that you are asking them to do. There's there's another nice parallel that again, through Georgie I've discovered. So part of part of being a horse owner for me is I want her. To be happy to be as stress free as possible. And one of the ways that I help her is also by helping her release tension in her own body. And there's a particular method that's used by some horse professionals, which works with the horse. And it's the body, body work methodology, and there's four key stages to this. So if you imagine that you had your hand on a, on the horse's body, but you were having the lightest of touches on their body, and you move your hand very, very slowly and you are watching for the horse's response. And it might be that they. Suddenly sigh or they blink deeply or they lower their head and you're looking for the response in relation to your touch. And when you are on that area where they're giving you that kind of response, that's, that's telling you that there's tension in their body and that they're, they're working with you to let go of it. I'll, I'll come to the reason why this reminded me of coaching, but the four key words that we use for this methodology is search. So you are, you're searching for those moments where the horse responds. You are then looking for the response in the horse. You are then staying very softly in that area and inviting the horse to release any tension. And then you're looking for the release that the horse has. Has actually let go of something and, and yeah, has got rid of that, that tension, that particular part of their body. So the concepts here in relation to coaching, it's empowering the horse that they can make the choice to let go of something. And it kind of reminded me a little bit of coaching clients. So together we're kind of researching we're we're exploring a particular territory that's important for the client, and then we might land on something where the hook, where the client responds in a way where we notice there's an energy shift and we might invite the client. To notice that too, and then it's up to the client whether or not we stay in that area. But the coach's job is to be, be soft, be light, be inviting no resistance to, to be with, be with the, the client in that space. We'll stay with the client in that space until they're ready to release, or they've made meaning or unlocked something. And then we'll carry on with our, with our search and our exploration. So the, the work that I do with Georgie in terms of like releasing her tension, there was this parallel for me around working with clients. So the horse decides. Where we go and where those spots of tension are just like the client will decide where we go and where we and where we explore. The horse will tell us how much pressure they're happy with. So we start with the lightest of, lightest of touches. And you might not even make physical contact to the horse that they will, they will let you know when through their responses, just like the client will let us know. Through their responses, whether we've got, whether we, we've jointly got to the right location and how we've got there together. And then the horse will then decide when they've released, just like the client will decide, have they got what they need from that conversation and are they ready to move on to something else? And that is all based on presence. Without presence, the noticing. Isn't possible. Yeah. You just wouldn't, you wouldn't be aware of it, would you? Mm-hmm. You know what's, what's so fascinating about this is, is how there's so much around the nonverbal communication mm-hmm. Which would make sense, wouldn't it, in a, in a sense with a, with an animal that doesn't speak English or whatever language us humans are using. They may come to recognize certain sounds and shapes of noises that we make verbally, but, but at the end of the day, you are having to rely on a nonverbal form of connection and exchange, aren't you? Yeah. And so it just really advocates, I think, beautifully, this idea of, you know, even though we think of coaching as a talking. A dialogue actually. There is a huge space of richness there, isn't there? Where there could be very, very little in the way of dialogue. Mm-hmm. It's so much more than than conversation. It's the silences that invite that deeper understanding. Yeah. The space. The space for reflection. Yeah. And yeah, like yeah, the noticing of of energy and what is also not said. Oh, yeah, yeah. Which of course is part of competency six, isn't it? What is Mm. What is the fullness of the communication around what is said and not said? So, you know, that's, yeah, absolutely. I can see those parallels and, and. In terms of you learning this from your relationship with Georgie yours, what have you noticed around how you've taken this into your coaching with human beings? Hmm. What? What experiences have you had? Yeah, so I think the main thing for me from. My experiences with Georgie in particular is the importance for checking myself, so getting myself prepared checking in with myself, how, how am I feeling energetically. I have a particular practice that I use for like grounding myself and. Yeah, just noticing like what my energy is like because of the awareness of how impactful that is. So recently I met a new client and we had our first proper conversation and she commented at the end that that they found me particularly easy to talk to and that was a really. Compliment for me because the ease for someone to feel at ease with me is, is important. And it's the feelings that we create for someone. If that person had said, oh, that was a really clever question you asked, that doesn't feel as. As connected. There's like, there's a, there's a difference for me in like the be how we are being with our clients. Mm. And like the technical skills that we bring as a coach. And often, often I hear people like wanting to find that, that clever question that that silver bullet question, but for me, the. Best questions have come. I wouldn't even be able to remember them. They've come in the moment more, I guess you would call it intuition. And I think that is specifically noted within the competencies and. That comes from that, that space, the silence, the knowing, the bravery to ask something that might be a bit random, but when you ask it, it unlocks something. So it's that like the presence allows, like the trust to develop and invites the client to explore in a safe way free of judgment. And yeah, be open. Mm-hmm. I mean, as ever, I'm seeing such a close connection between cultivates trust and safety and maintains presence. I always think of those two. They're almost inseparable. Yeah. They're so intertwined, aren't they? They're so intertwined. But I, what I'm also thinking about here is, is competency two embodies a coaching mindset, which of course is one of the things that can also underpin competencies four and five. Is, I'm struck by the term mindset because mind tends to take us to our thoughts. Mm. You know, and when we are, whatever it is that we do to get present, it's often something a little bit more tangible, like clearing our desk or, you know, changing the scenery or turning notifications off like we've just done on our phones or, yeah. You know, it's. There's something very different here, isn't there? About, as you were just inviting us to think about, about a body scan of our energy. And so I'm just wondering what else could, what else could we do to, to check in on our own energy? Could you, could you say any more about that? Hmm. So I guess just being. Aware of it in the first case and getting to know it. So spending time in your own energy and really understanding what that means to be without doing. And that would be different for different people. So, you know, for some people that might be going for walking Nature, for example, and just being, oh, it might be. It might be a guided meditation or it might be just sitting still for a couple of minutes and you know that the concept of the body scan just standing with your feet on the ground and noticing what you feel. So do you feel an energy coming up and over? Is it spinning? Is it fast? Is it slow? Is it big? Is it close to you? So just getting to know what it is like just to be, be you. And then in terms of preparation, that conscious thought of, well, what energy am I bringing into this coaching space? And is it one that you want to bring or is it one that you want to, to shift? And knowing what to do to shift energy. So it might be, again, like people have different grounding practices and that's, that's something that's become, you know, quite habitual for me. On a day-to-day basis. It might be, I don't know, having a bit of a ritual and like shutting down your electronics for example, or changing the space that you're working in. I know like space when I'm with Georgie is important as well, so we'll have a different energy when we're in her stable versus when we're outside and in different spaces outside and it's like it clicks something. It's like, oh, right, yes, we're here to relax, or, oh, we're here to have some fun or, and I think. Having those kind of spaces with our, our clients to invite them into, into the work that we are doing is created by how we are being with each other. Mm. And I mean, that really resonates with me 'cause I'm a very strong believer around this idea of location, having memory, how, you know, energy is we associate a certain state or a certain energy. With certain physical locations, like you were just saying, you know, the stable has one kind of energy, another might have, you know, we are here to do some work energy or we are here to play energy and of course with our clients, you know, there's a lot to be said, isn't there for really thinking about where should this conversation take place? Because the obvious, you know, years ago, I guess the obvious would've been an office in the building, which can have its contaminated energy. Now everything seems to be on Zoom, which is equally almost from a nonverbal intelligence perspective, layer upon layer of contaminated energy through this, this box that we're here looking at. So maybe there's something here really about, especially in today's world, I'm thinking about around getting, how can we get clients out, you know, into a different space and ourselves into a different space? Yeah. Yeah. I was thinking about zoom earlier with somebody actually, and how, how efficient it is to be able to connect with people across. The world and, and do this work, yet there's this depth of connection that happens when we're present with each other. I'm not sure how Georgie would feel about Zoom, but I know when we are together that, that we have, we have that connection. So I think, yeah, the space for, you know, coaching with. Whether it's with horses or whether it's in nature, or whether it's just in a, in a nice room, somewhere that's away from the day to day, that can all have such a, such an impact on, on how we are feeling energetically and therefore shift something. Hmm. Yeah. So what else do you think then we can learn from horses around? I mean, I've, I love this idea of those four steps. You can easily translate that into coaching. What else can we learn from? Working with horses that we could translate into working with humans. Hmm. So one of the, one of the things that the horses invite us to do in this work is connected to unconditional positive regard and noticing without making judgment. So what are we, what are we actually observing? And if we were to let go of assumptions or our own beliefs, our own, you know, meaning making systems, what might emerge just from noticing. Yeah. As opposed to making an opinion or a judgment about it, you mean? Yeah. Yeah. So like the typical would be a cause and effect. Oh, well that happened. So that means, whereas an observation of, oh, I noticed this happened. What do we do with that? And the reason why horses invite us to like develop that ability is because they don't make judgment. They, they react and respond purely on instinct. So they don't have a thought process of, oh, well that human did that because this happened to them earlier. So they're feeling a bit grumpy or, they got their words muddled up, or they don't care about who we, who we are in the sense of labels. They don't care if you are the CEO of a company or whether you're a master coach or whether you are, you know anybody. What they care about is how you make them feel and how you are being so. The noticing is important because when we're working with horses, we're just noticing their response. We are not interpreting that as being X, y, or Z, and the gift that the horses give us is by us affecting our being. We can then notice how that. Or affect the response of the horse. So if I go back to the four stages of, of the touch, for example, if you are touching a horse and they're not responding, it might be that perhaps you've gone in too hard and your touch is too firm and the horse is responding in a. Or that it is not, maybe it's not responding in a way that you would think it would, it might just be very still, for example. But if you lighten your touch and invite the horse to be liked, also notice what the, how the horse responds. Maybe they give you like a bit of a signal that that feels nice, that maybe they blink or maybe they look at you differently or maybe they flick their ear and it can be very, very subtle, but it's a response in how you have changed yourself and maybe you have lightened yourself. And that's allowed them to lighten them theirselves. Mm-hmm. So yeah, it's the invitation to observe and then shift something in us to then. Help. Another being shift their state. So there's something also a little bit linked, I know, like a quantum physicist, but the concept that a change made somewhere can affect a change somewhere else. Yeah. So by affecting changes in ourselves as coaches, we can help clients affect positive changes in. And therefore their system. So there's something, there's something about the ability to like deepen our presence and how that affects systemic presence. That's a bit of a contagion. Yeah. I mean, there's so much in there. I, I'm thinking also back to what you said at the beginning of that piece, which is around not just noticing in the horse or the client, but also noticing in ourselves. So noticing those shifts for ourselves. But also how the competencies guide us, don't they, around noticing what's working and adapting and being flexible. Mm-hmm. So there's something there that, that you've described very much. You know, if my touch is too firm, I need to soften it back, and I would only know that if I'm being present and being observant to notice that. So it's. That's, there's a same criteria there isn't there for coaching? Absolutely. We should adapt our, our style. Yes. Within our ways of being. Yeah. In the, 'cause the congruence is also important, but I think what you've what you've just mentioned there, that parallel of. Noticing the response in the horse and going lighter. We will be doing that whilst we're coaching humans. Exactly. And noticing, oh, what's what's happened for that client? Have they suddenly gone quiet? And is that quiet a good quiet because they're processing? Is it because they've gone to a place where. They haven't been before and it's not okay to be there. And in which case, how do we, how do we continue working with a client to get back into safer territory or stay there together and give the client some choice around that. But then the noticing on how, how we've, how we'd like, how the client has responded to what we have introduced is really important there for us to then to remain flexible and curious. Yeah. And then of course we've got that last piece that you were ta saying about the systemic part, the ripple effect almost. Mm-hmm. How, you know, we are giving off signals even when we don't realize we are giving off signals, don't we? You know, we are, we are communicating. All the time, whether we are conscious and intentional with that, communication is another matter. Yeah. But we are communicating together and exchanging those signals and that energy all the time, aren't we? Yeah. So whatever it is that is going on for you, and whatever you are noticing or not noticing in your client is going to have a ripple effect. Back in their workplace or their relationships or whatever whether you are aware of that or not. Yeah. And probably in in a, I was just thinking about my wifi connection and sometimes it's quite problematic and can, and can buffer, but our connections with each other are probably more stable than, and some of the wifi connections. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So what, since you've been, I mean obviously you've had a horse for quite a long time, and then mm-hmm. A bit more recently, you've been studying horse and equine facilitation, and I know this is something that's really important for you. How would you say, I mean, we've talked a little bit about how. This has informed your coaching, but I'm wondering what could you share around how it's changed your coaching or developed your coaching in terms of things such as what you do less of now or what you might do more of now, or what you might do differently, just so that anyone. As a coach who's listening to this, who's not got a horse and has, you know, no knowledge of all of that, what are some of the practical adjustments that you've made from your learning? Hmm. That's an interesting question, and if I, if I reflect on that for a moment, I think it encompasses all of the things that we've spoken about. So the, the observations without attachment. So I'm much more comfortable now to share an observation that I'm noticing in a client where, where there's, there seems to be something shifting. So it could be a noticing in in their language. But more than that, if they're articulating things very much from the thinking space, the mindset that we. Touched on earlier and being curious about what's happening in their body, and quite often that seems to unlock something as well because we are in such a material paradigm that we don't often spend time thinking about. Feeling it's not even, see, I'm even using the language myself. It's such a default, isn't it? To be thinkers as opposed to feelers and the experience. And it's made me much more curious about about somebody's experience in this conversation. So what are they experiencing as they're telling me about X, Y, and Z, what they experiencing as they're noticing insights that are coming up. And it's those kind of more like intangible type questions that are often not unlike the top of the tongue to, to talk about because it's tapping into something maybe a slightly different than we would if we're purely having a cognitive conversation. Yeah. Yeah. And you are reminding me of, of where this links in a way is to the concept of the phenomenology of presence. That is something that our colleague that who we both know well, Steven Clements Yeah. About, and, and, and is, is is really interested and knowledgeable about in that and what's coming up for me around that is. We can, we can do all these things to try to be present, and yet it's so easy, isn't it, for the mind to want to go ahead from the present. If we think of this as a timeline now for a moment mm-hmm. It, it's so seductive, isn't it? For the mind to want to go ahead to the next question that might be bubbling up or. The next thing that we feel we ought to be doing, you know, in terms of adding value or whatever it might be, when actually we can't notice these things unless we are just really in the moment. Because those, those experiences could be quite fleeting, couldn't they? That, you know, like you were saying with Georgie, that that deeper blink of the eyes or that just that deeper sigh, I mean, they're. They're very subtle, aren't they? And I, and I remember a wonderful gentleman who specializes in nonverbal intelligence, who I did a lot of studying with years ago, Michael Grinder, who said that. You can't always really notice. It's harder to notice these differences, these subtle, these subtle shifts in real time because real time is almost too fast. And I remember when we were, we were learning together, he would teach us to slow down recordings to almost go frame by frame so that then our fast mind can go, oh, there it was. There was that blink or there was that shift in the, the, you know, where the eyes went or whatever. So there's what, what was just coming up for me there because of that was we have got to stay so moment by moment to have the chance really to notice quickly enough because so much could just literally. Go over our head. Yeah. Well, we're taking in so much information all the time that like capturing the, the nuances. It sounds simple, but in practice it's, it's much more difficult than that. Especially if we are in, you know, day-to-day life where we have so many things to do and stuff. Yeah. So you then slow down to the point. You can notice the nuances. Yeah. It's it's definitely one that, that takes practice and patience and persistence. Yeah. And there's always things that happen after and you think, oh, I wonder what that was about. It's too late now. But then that's okay because in the moment something else would've happened. And we can, we can learn from those experiences. Because once you start noticing that you've missed something, then you're noticing that there was something there in the first place, which I guess is making a great case for reflective practice. Yes. After, after the, the conversation to, to notice what you might not have noticed in the moment. Yeah. And, and you also seem to be building a great case here, Fay, for silence. You know, because how can you, how can you really sense energy when you are talking or when you are thinking about what you want to say or what you want to ask? You know these, I know we are sort of miraculous creatures. We also know that we are not brilliant at multitasking. The brain wants to sort of focus on something more singularly and deeply, doesn't it? And so there's a huge case for silence here, isn't there? To really turn off all of the noise of speaking or thinking and just feel, just sense. What's the weight of that energy? Is that energy? Argument energy or is it joyful and excited energy or you can't do that sometimes with noise. Yeah. And the turning off the noise, again, it's one that takes practice and I haven't, I haven't been able to do that completely yet. And I dunno if anyone ever really can, because even within the silence, there's still the noise that happens in our. It's a really it's a really difficult one, but I love what you were saying about the feeling. And recently I was at a workshop. It was meditation workshop, but one of the exercises that we were invited to do was to just be with each other in pairs and notice what we were feeling. So we did the body scan I mentioned earlier and. Getting to know our own energy and noticing what that was like. And then we stepped into a space where we were much closer with another person to notice how that shifted the energy. So it was all based on feeling. It wasn't about words or interpretation, and, and that was really powerful and really interesting to what came up for people. And how much, like in a knowing there was, yeah, about emotions that hasn't even been surfaced. So like feeling sad, but you know that you're not sad because you've just checked yourself and it's not you that's feeling sad. So where's that sadness coming from? Or you've like feeling like a bubbly excitement or like that nervous energy and it's like, well, that's not mine either. It's just very interesting. So yeah, there's something there to play with as well. Get with the body and check how the energy shifts. And I was just reflecting really, you know, I, and I hope, I hope. That we can do some of the fullness of this work within, I dunno, maybe I'm, I just need to own an element of, of cynicism or doubt that I have around, around the world in this, in that so much coaching, especially corporate coaching, feels as though it's still very grounded in a cognitive process, in a thinking process, a talking process, and that. Things such as feelings, somatic energy, you know, all of those, all of those concepts are sometimes too much on the fringe to be, you know, openly embraced. And yet I feel as though the world is crying out for that work. I completely agree. And. Yeah, there's almost a bit of a bit of sadness around the intense cognitive desires for a lot of this work because at the heart of it, we are all human beings. So we all have these experiences. That's what we are here for. We're here, we're here to experience. We are not. Here just to, to think. And yet we meet people where they're at. So perhaps the thinking is important for somebody at this point in time and perhaps through our presence as coaches, we invite them to experience something different that they become curious about and perhaps that opens the door for that trust. To start exploring in different ways through our coaching. Yeah. Wow. Therein lies the opportunity. Well, I'm mindful Fay, that we've been chatting about this for quite a long time now. It feels as though there's still so much more, but for now, is there anything else that you'd like to say about this work and. What you're doing with it before we press pause. Yeah, so I guess a couple of things. So one, if any of this resonates with anyone, then I'm really happy to have conversations with like-minded people or even people who are, you know, wanting to know a bit more, but not sure. So very happy to be connected on LinkedIn. And for my coaching peers who, I guess they're looking for ways of enhancing their presence. Then perhaps there's some things within here that resonate that they can try. And you asked me about like my own practice and what, what I've dialed up and what I've dialed down. So just to summarize some of those things, again, around the noticing without attachment. One of the other things I don't think I mentioned was structure and what might happen if we just let go a little bit of, of structure and what might emerge emerge for the clients there. And yeah, trusting the pause and the silences in our work because sometimes that's when the magic happens. I definitely think that is when the magic can happen. Well, thank you so much, Fay. I'm really looking forward to hearing more. About the work that you are going to do with horses and who knows? Maybe we'll share a few more thoughts on that another time. I'd love that. Thank you for inviting me on here. It's been lovely talking to you about this. Thank you, Fay. You have been listening. To coaching in Conversation by Tracy Sinclair, a podcast aimed at exploring how coaching is a vehicle for human development in today's and tomorrow's world. You can learn more about coach training and development@tracysinclair.com and follow us on social media. If you enjoyed this podcast, please leave a rating and review and also share it with your networks to help us expand our reach. Thank you for listening and see you next time.