Hello, my name is Tracy Sinclair. Welcome to Coaching and Conversation. Coaching in Conversation is a chance to discuss and explore, not just how we can keep developing. And ensuring as coach practitioners, but also to consider how coaching is evolving and its future potential and place as a powerful vehicle for human development in today's and tomorrow's world. I'll be sharing some of my own thoughts on these topics. And we will also hear from some great guests from around the world who bring their unique experience and perspectives. Hello everyone and welcome once again to another episode of Coaching in Conversation with myself, Tracy Sinclair. And this time I am joined by a lovely colleague, Dr. Elizabeth Cross. Elizabeth is a master certified coach. She's a supervisor, a mentor, coach, a tutor, and she has also led learning and development functions in many organizations as well as running her own. Professional coaching practice for several years. I have the great pleasure of having first met Elizabeth when we were colleagues on the UK ICF board, and I remember that Elizabeth handled very well the learning and development offering that we were, we were nurturing and cultivating for ICF members at that time. It is a delight to talk to Elizabeth anyway, but my particular interest in inviting her is because she has undertaken a really powerful and interesting piece of research for her doctoral studies, which is all around the development of coaches, how coaches develop, how they make decisions around their development and, and how do do the different types of development inform. Their capacity and their maturity as a coach practitioner over time. This is actually part, the first part of a two part series because Elizabeth and I found that there was a lot more to talk about. So watch this space for another episode around this topic, particularly around maturity and mastery in coaching. But this particular episode is called the craft, the being, and the art of coaching and joy. Well, hello Elizabeth. It's such a pleasure to have you as a guest on our podcast this time. I've been really looking forward to this as we have just been discussing. I think both of us have been looking forward to it. So thank you for, for joining me and for sharing what I think you're going to share this afternoon. Well, and, and thank you Tracy.'cause I think, as I was just saying, I feel really touched to be invited and privileged and honored. And I'm just sitting here with a lot of curiosity thinking. I wonder where our conversation's gonna take us today. So let, let's see where we go with this. Let's see where we go. Curiosity is good in coaching as we know. So good job. We've got some. Okay. Well, I, I would love to invite you to share perhaps in a, a little bit about you and, and who you are as a coach, what you, what you stand for, but also about this really wonderful and significant piece of work that you. Have done because I think it will be something I'm sure our readers will be very interested in. So I'm gonna hand over to you to say what you want to say and I'll maybe chip in as a little bit as we go along. Fabulous. Well, thank you so much for that. And in, in thinking a little bit about me, I think starting with. I've always been curious and also a bit is the word skeptical. I, I'll talk about later because I'm dyslexic, so sometimes we might have to find the right words. And I think with that it's that sort of blend of sort of curious and questioning everything. It's really shaped my perspective on the world and how I've approached my own learning. As well, and you know, we talked before about sort of having a new neurodivergent brain. I often see things and notice things in ways that other people don't, and sometimes I miss things that are obvious and I think this. Has been a strength. And it's also what has really driven what I would call a, a lifelong interest in learning and development. And that's not just about getting skills, but it's about how we build the, I'm gonna use the word capacity. So, so navigate, you know. Complexity what life throws with us. And I love this idea of sort of developing practical wisdom and being able to take intelligent action, which I, I pinch from I think probably David Drake. But you know, and that's, that's what I'm curious about. And I think I work as a coach, I work as a supervisor, a mentor. We are both in with, with tutoring and it's a question that I get asked, you know, what do I do next? My development, how do I become a better coach? And also it's a question I've sort of asked myself and I still ask myself, and that's what. Really fueled my interest in taking a deep dive into doing some research in this area. I'm also a pragmatist and I'm sure I'm not alone in thinking, do you know what? I wish I'd used that money to go on a holiday rather than go on that training course. And yet other things I did that were completely unexpected, I just went along 'cause a friend was going and it turned out to be one of the most brilliant things I've done. I recognized that my approach was quite ad hoc, and then when I started reading, I think this is actually recognized. So that's, that's where my curiosity took me. And I was really interested in, so what do we need to do in terms of how we learn and develop as coaches? I think this is becoming increasingly important. I've been around quite a while. In the, in the nineties and you're gonna get my view, which is just one opinion on it. I really feel that coaching was very much about improving performance and you know, it's the potential anybody can do anything. You know, you think back to the sort of the, the grow models and all the competency models and it was very much based on like, you know, the skills and the structure and the framework. I think that sort of work now is done very successfully, probably by ai, but also the demands of the world is changing, and when we are working as coaches supporting senior leaders and managers dealing with this world of complexity, and I've got a new term, which I've borrowed from, I borrow a lot from people. I think it's James Casino. Is it Aban? Brickle, anxious, non-linear, and incomprehensible. I think the question is what are we doing for our own development so we can manage this type of world in order to support others that are navigating this sort of world? And I think that some of the, what we might think of traditionally as continued professional development just is not. Sort of cutting the mustard anymore. You know, it's still there as a useful foundation, but it's starting to think about, I think, much more emphasis on the self work we are doing, which I think is getting real traction when we're starting to talk about the continuous personal and professional development. So, very long introduction. So let me just sort of pause there and see what's coming up for you. Well, thank you Elizabeth. And this is music to my ears because there's something that I've heard myself saying and thinking and writing about so much. In the last couple of years, which is what, what is the opportunity beyond skill, beyond behavioral skill. And that ultimately as an instrument of our work, our work is ourselves as well as what we do with other clients. So I, I'm often talking about, there's the doing of coaching and then there's the being Yeah. Of the coach. So what, what you are describing there really, really resonates, so thank you. I think we're gonna have a lovely conversation. Yeah. You know, and, and, and I think that's not to say that focusing on skills, competency, knowledge is not important. It is. But that's the, that's the foundation. I think it's also thinking about what else do we, what else do we need? And, that's where sort of my research took me, and I think there were quite a few surprises because what I was looking at are what are coaches' views on development? What do they think are important, what are their priorities, and are there any shared views? So what. Came out of my study was of course it's of a typology of decision making strategies, which identified three shared viewpoints. And they're probably a lot more, and I think that's the other thing in this conversation we're talking about, you know, uncertainty and not knowing. And as I said to you at the, you know, when we were. Not being recorded. What I want to do is to provoke thought, you know, I don't wanna be seen as a, a thought leader or going, this is it. This is the right way. It's just to, for people that are listening, to evoke your own curiosity. And you know, perhaps as I describe these strategies, you can start to think, oh, well no, that doesn't really resonate for me, but this is what it is. You know, or, or, or perhaps this, so what came out there were some shared viewpoints on different types of strategies for how we were approaching our development, which also I think help us understand what coach development means, because I think that's the other thing in all of this, and we've had conversations about that. We throw out these words like coach development and we assume we're all. Understanding the same thing and probably how you make sense of it, how I make sense of it, how somebody else does. We are also seeing it differently. And you know, as we say in coaching, it's not about getting answers. It's probably about getting some more good questions, but it's just starting to, to think a little bit about that. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And what to bring curiosity, what, what did you identify as The three. Shared viewpoints. So I called them the craft of coaching, the being of coaching and the art of coaching.'cause that just gives me A, B, C and. The craft of coaching is more about when coaches are prioritizing probably what we traditionally think of as get my letters right, CPD, the continued professional part. These are coaches that their priority right now is for knowledge, skills, competency-based development feedback. Their supervision is. What I would call a more reflective practice. You know, quite often it's the questions that am I, you know, how, how am I being, am I, am I getting this right? With that part. So that's that. Just in a sort of nutshell, just a little bit of a picture of where the priorities for somebody coming from the craft of coaching. So that's got a slightly more perhaps as of an external focus of, you know, what I'm sort of doing. They might be say, looking for webinars, courses, mentor coaching, perhaps if you're an ICF member, all about building that. The being of coaching and the art of coaching are more about enhancing capacity, and I differentiate capability and capacity. My very simple metaphor, which again I've borrowed from somebody else, is the difference of am I adding more apps or. Am I upgrading my system? So when I'm focusing on more knowledge, more skills, I'm basically adding more apps. So I'm increasing my repertoire, but I'm staying within the existing way. I'm making sense of my world. It's for me, it's like reshuffling a deck of cards. When I'm building capacity, it's like doing an up upgrade. So I'm getting more functionality. I'm better able to navigate. Complexity deal with things with grace and equanimity. And for me it's a little bit like, you know, I'm suddenly getting some new cards completely. You know, maybe I'm putting happy families into my existing card pack. I don't know. But it's a different way of looking at things. So the being of coaching is coaches who are prioritizing the type of learning that. Has the potential to enhance capacity, but they're doing it by really wanting to do a lot of what I would call the the deep self work. So they probably would. Prioritize you know, one-to-one supervision rather than perhaps going on a webinar and, and maybe even one-to-one over group supervision.'cause they, they're going to want a more in-depth experience. You know, it may also be some things like, you know, like for me a lot of it is my yoga practice or going on a retreat. You know, it, it's these sorts of, and, and also our own reflective practice. You know, what we are doing to reflect and journal. And that part, and this I think as well where we start to get into the being and the art. It moves from, and you might have to help me, me with my words here, because it's, it's when it's got an X in it, which I think is a reflex, if, is it, rather than ref. Yeah. It's a critically practice. And this is, we, this, I'm. And this is where we are really starting to do a lot more thinking about our thinking and our assumptions. But for the being of coaches, we're doing it by doing the self work. In contrast for the art of coaching, it's still focused on building capacity, but it's got more of an external focus. We are doing this. By our work in developing others, and as coaches, we develop others. So all I'm, I'm not explaining it very well, and we need a little diagram, but all of these types have a little bit of each one. It's like, where are we putting the, the main focus with it. So with the. Of coaching, there is a real focus from how I'm building my capacity through the type of work I do with others. So these coaches are going to be likely to be sort of have, you know, quite a. Significant part of their portfolio was a tutor, a supervisor, a mentor coach. They might be writing books, they might be running master classes. They might be doing research, but it's not just the type of learning because when I trained as a supervisor, I went. I did a training course on that, and actually that type of learning would probably fit. I'm getting more knowledge and skills. I'm probably fitting in the craft, but it's the type of learning when we are reflecting on what am I learning from being with my clients? It's that type of deep level of reflection. So does that give you, I've probably been as clear as mud, but does that give you a little bit of a picture about these three strategies? Well, I've, I've got a very clear picture in my mind and what was coming up for me was almost which really aligns with the model of coaching that I use in my, in my school of like a Venn diagram, you know, of the creative sorry, the craft, the being, and the artistry. Because as you've just described, you may be working with the artistry, but you're not leaving the craft behind. Yeah. You're still reinforcing that foundational skill. And one of the, the model that I use in, in my work as a tutor is I talk about the science, the art, and the alchemy of coaching which has an outcome to produce magic. That's kind of the metaphor. Yeah. That, that I, that I've, I've come upon. So I, I, I love what you're saying here, and I'd I'd love to, I guess one of the things that's really coming up for me is, is we are talking in a way, aren't we, around this balance between the doing and the being and. One of the questions that, that I, I get asked and I asked others and of myself before was, so how do you do that? Which is a bit of a paradox in a way because we get very hooked into doing, don't we? Yeah, and I, and I can remember sort of saying, you know, with this frustrated journaling question of how do I do getting better at being, which is, yeah. Which is, do you know what I mean? Which is so obstacle. So what, what is it that in your, in your opinion and from your work, Elizabeth, what is it that helps us transition? Okay, so. I dunno if This's gonna answer the question, so pull me up if it doesn't. But I think I'd like to take a step back from that because for me, I think there's a differentiation between learning and development that often gets confused. You know, I used to be head of l and d and I used to ask other HR people, what's the difference? So lemme share what I consider the difference between sort of learning and development. So I think for me learning it, it's a little bit like, it's, it's like a tree. If we, if we look at a tree, when a tree grows, that's like the development. But that happens. You know, you can't sort of make a, a so you can't pull a tree and make it grow. What helps the tree grow is. The, the soil, which is the nurturing context. And I think that's, that's something we have to think about when we're, when we're learning, you know, what's our whole context? It supports it, it's the sun, it's the water, and those are like the learning activities. So for me, the question is what are the type of learning activities? So they are perhaps doing activities, but what are the type of activities we need to be investing in that are most. Lightly to foster our growth and development. And that, again, is where the curiosity sits. And again you know, in some of my research as part of this, I was of asking, you know, what, what type of activities and we may or may not go there, but I think this is where it becomes deeply personal because, you know, for me, I often think some of the things that. Most developers as coaches are life experience. And you know, that's not something you know, I, I didn't go on a course to get learn from how so say going through a divorce, but it was the reflection on that process and. Processing it. And you know, at that time I had worked with a therapist as well. And when I look back, it was an incredible time of, of learning. And I can see how it shifted in how I hold compassion for myself and others. You know, that, that wouldn't, you couldn't put that on a professional body, you know, sort of. Our learning, but it was an incredible experience. So part of this I think, is a little bit about trusting yourself because I've been, when I've been doing some webinars, I've been asking coaches, what activities did you do in the last 18 months or so that have had the biggest impact on your work as a coach? And very few people say, go on a webinar or do a course, you know, but they're very individualized. So I think what it might be for one person is gonna be different from an from another. And that's where, you know, we we're talking a lot about curiosity today. But this is what I do. I do think makes the difference is whatever that learning is, it's our ability to bring some critical reflexivity to that learning experience. Yeah. I love that. Thank you. You are making me think and reflect as we are talking here about. Just some, some comparable experiences of my own that resonate with what you are sharing. Elizabeth, and I can remember, you know, for many years in my coaching growth as as a practitioner, I was always very focused on what's the next coaching book I need to read, you know, because. Being the perfectionist or recovering perfectionist, should I say that? I am. It was always about getting better and better and better, you know, as best I can at the doing of coaching. And then I can remember there came a point, and it was actually on my, my development journey towards applying for my MCC, where I, the penny suddenly dropped and I thought, hang on a minute. This isn't about. Just cramming more of that knowledge, that learning into me. It's about how am I growing as a, as a practitioner, as a person. And I, I've, I've, I have to say I've hardly read any coaching books since, but what I do read is poetry or literature, or. I go, I love walking anyway, but I spend more time in nature. I read the yoga sutures, you know, I love yoga. Like, like you do, and, and I find that these learning and growth opportunities, these reflective opportunities. Are there in so many other ways other than this straight line of what's the next step I need to take in being better at this, this skill. Yeah. If that makes sense. Yeah. And, and I think, you know, as you, you know, sort of, sort of articulate that so, so beautifully. I think the other thing that came outta research is it's not linear. So, you know, and again, that was something I'd sort of. Assumed a little bit that, you know, we start off with the craft, we do that, and then we sort of move on. And this idea of, you know, there's a we may or may not talk about mastery and coach maturity day, see how we go. But you know, and then when we move through this thing and we suddenly sort of get to this. This place where, you know, intuitive, you might think there's a linear part. We start with the craft, we go through the being and then we get through the art. And certainly when I looked at the sort of background of the coaches who were identifying with those different decision making strategies, as you would expect, you have more of experienced coaches who are more in the art. But then the other thing I think is well. Is that because they're in the point of their career where they're established because we are in a position perhaps I'm gonna speak for myself, but generally the remuneration for executive coaching is gonna be more than we get when we're supervising or mentoring. And certainly you know, if we've got the time to in research. So maybe it's not necessarily a case of their years of experience that put people there, but they're in a position that's that context and a position to do this type of work. So. Equally, there was some very experienced coaches that were identifying with the craft, and I think one of the things that came out is that when we are needing to I'm just gonna get some water. Apply for a credential, we then tend to use the, what I would call the craft of coaching strategy. Because suddenly, you know, and I've worked like you with a lot of MCC coaches and they're suddenly asking questions like, how do I do it? Just recently I've had a couple of Supervisions, two absolutely amazing coaches, very different. And what they've brought to supervision is they've been going through a mentor process and they've completely lost confidence in what they're doing because they're suddenly starting to go, am I getting this right? How do I demonstrate? So they are, instead of coaching, they're thinking about their coaching, which they hadn't done for about. Four years. So what there is, is that we will tend to move through these parts. And there's not necessarily a right or a better place to be because I think that's the other thing that really I've got a lot of clarity on. It's the question about what do I need right now for my time and my context and my. My needs. And I think, you know, that is gonna depend on a lot of things from what I've just done last year, perhaps to what I need to have a sustainable coaching business, to what practically I have energy and motivation for, you know, what my budget can, all sorts of things. So I think it's a lot more complex than just thinking we go on this beautiful linear journey. Absolutely. And I think, you know, back to your point of whether we need another conversation on maturity and mastery, I would say we probably do. So maybe we'll, we'll, we'll set a teaser for that and have a part two to this so that our, our listeners don't think we're going to ignore that part. So if you were to. You know, having positioned these three lovely areas, this A, B, C, and the fact that it's not linear. And, and as I'm hearing you say, actually we can almost find ourselves regressing sometimes back. We may feel artistic and then suddenly we, we regress back to what do I have to do again? So, you know, it, it's, it, it's not always it's cyclical perhaps. Yeah. As well. Yeah, and I think for me there's it's almost something more, it's more of a spiral. Yes. I'm coming back to it, but if I use myself as an example, when I started off I sort of started off actually at PCC and at that part, you know, very much about, you know, what do I need to do? Understanding, getting lots of feedback on my coaching, working with my mentor. And this was, it was so long ago that we actually did a written exam. I can remember. Yeah. Like paragraph. With, with that. And then so with that I then sort of did, you know, various things and that's when I really then after that got really interested in sort of really working meaningly with a supervisor and, and doing a lot of work on my being. And when I came back to do my. MCC, it was similar, but it was different. So yes, I was focusing on skills and competencies and asking the question, but it was sort of at a different level if that had be made sense. Because I think one of the things of when we upgrade our system, we can then start to see some of the existing. Tools, techniques in a different light, in a different way and, and start to use them in a different way and interpret them in a different way. And I think there is that different ways that we sort of can interpret what good looks like. And I think that's the, that's the other thing that, I sort talk about a lot and why it's always such a moving feast because when I think about what I thought could look like many years ago, like probably if I sort of saw myself coaching now, I would put my head in my hands and go, oh my goodness. Because that has shifted for me. And that's okay. It, it keeps moving. And that's why I think, you know, what we need in terms of our development keeps moving because we keep reinterpreting it in a different way. Yeah. And also we need to, because the world is changing, I think what we are being asked to do as coaches now, it goes back to what I was saying at the beginning. It's different to where it was 20, 30 years ago. You know? And we are needing to evolve with. Meeting the, in evolving needs of our clients. Yeah, I mean, I, I, that really resonates around. Things are evolving, coaching is evolving. Our clients are evolving, their needs and expectations are evolving and so are we, aren't we? You know, we are changing and going through different life transitions ourselves. So. Just thinking as we, maybe I'm just noticing how time is flying here. We probably need to stop pulling ourselves to a pause a little bit for now, but if someone wanted to, you know, in listening to you, Elizabeth was thinking, wow, you know, I'm really intrigued about this. I'd like to focus more on that being side and what kinds of activities might I. Knowing that this is a different path for everyone, but what, what would you, what would you invite them to, to think about or consider? That's a beautiful question and, and maybe that's the first thing is to consider that question for yourself and just, you know, just allow yourself to, just to sit with it. Because I think part of this is allowing ourself to sit with, do you know what, I haven't got the answer for this, but what starts to come up? For me in that question is, I think in part it's that. What helps you tune into yourself to when you sort of trust yourself the most? So we both talked about walking. For me it's often when I am sort of, you know, just going for a beautiful walk in nature and I actually set myself that question. So what am I needing to do right now? And let's, let's see what emerges. I think that's part of it. I think another part is just. Noticing where I'm stuck right now. You know, noticing some themes and patterns about, you know, what, what am I noticing where I seem to be sort of coming up about the, the same thing all the time. And then when I start to notice that, then I can start to think about, okay, what is really going to help me shift this because. I think the bread and butter to the being is having a strong, critically reflexive practice. So for me. You know, supervision is a given, but it is the right type of supervisor that is really going to help me challenge my thinking and perspective. I think it's whatever way works with the way your brain works for being able to reflect on experience. I, I love journaling and about 10 years ago I decided I was not going to have any horrible pens or horrible paper. So I invest in beautiful journals and beautiful pens and. Right. So, you know, that's, that's the one, you know, some of the things that I find helpful to that. So I think there is some sort of structure in having a good reflective practice. Thinking about, you know, what, almost what I, it's quite often it's like, what is your learning edge right now? And it's almost like, what don't you want to look at? Because what you don't want to look at is probably what you. Need to look at. I think the other part as we start to do this thinking is also to think about, you know, what's, because I think again, again, as adults, we learn through communities of practice. You know, and it might not be formal, but who might be some good people I'd like to talk with? Who do I. Be with, with who would I like to listen to, you know, what inspires me? So that's probably, I dunno if I've given a, a good answer to that. It's a bit of a cardboard one, but perhaps just some ideas to get, get, you know, if you are listening to this, get you thinking get you thinking about what, what does this look like for me right now? You know, and, and just to finish, I think sometimes it is being courageous because. Many years ago, I trained as a therapist. So you do therapy as part of that. But every so often something comes up and I just go, do you know what? I, I need to have some therapeutic time right now. Yeah. But what I've just noticed now, I mean, for myself personally, I'm very much grappling on. Actually I this is my next bit because I dunno if it's identity or self-concept, but this shift in a way of starting to work differently as I'm aging and letting go of things. And actually now I'm navigating this with an absolutely brilliant coach because I thought, do you know what? I'd rather work with a coach who does a lot of parts work than do some therapy. So, you know, again, it's just being creative and, and thinking about it. Well, thank you so much. There are some really rich ideas there, many of which are very appealing to me. I know my accountant would get very cross at my stationary budget because like you, I do like to have really lovely journals and pens and we get through quite a lot of them, don't we? So so thank you. Thank you so much for that. Elizabeth, where, just to, just to close off for now, where can people find your work and your research? If they'd like to read more about it, please tell us. So I've, I've finally got a website which we can share in the notes that you can find us. I'm also on LinkedIn. And on LinkedIn, I've got some posts if you want to email me. I can send you I've got a, a couple of articles published directly on the research. So more than happy to share those. So do, you know, feel free to contact me directly as well. Contact, happy to share that. And also happy to point you in the direction of some other brilliant people that are thinking and writing in this space as well. Because I think that's a lovely thing, Tracy. There is some gathering voices for where we are coming from and some really thoughtful individuals contributing to this space. Well, there certainly are. Thank you so much for being so generous with the resources. Your, your contact details will be in the notes, so I'm sure people will reach out. And it sounds as though there might be a part two to our conversation because it feels like there are a few more things to talk about. So, watch this space, everyone and Elizabeth, we can get looking at diaries, but for now, thank you so much. I've really enjoyed this and I know I'm leaving thinking I want to know a lot more about this, so I hope our listeners are too. Thank you. And it really has been lovely to be with you this afternoon. Thanks so much. You have been listening to Coaching in Conversation by Tracy Sinclair, a podcast aimed at exploring how coaching is a vehicle for human development in today's and tomorrow's world. You can learn more about coach training and development@tracysinclair.com and follow us on social media. If you enjoyed this podcast, please leave a rating and review and also share it with your networks to help us expand our reach. Thank you for listening and see you next time.