Hello, my name is Tracy Sinclair. Welcome to Coaching and Conversation. Coaching in Conversation is a chance to discuss and explore, not just how we can keep developing. And ensuring as coach practitioners, but also to consider how coaching is evolving and its future potential and place as a powerful vehicle for human development in today's and tomorrow's world. I'll be sharing some of my own thoughts on these topics. And we will also hear from some great guests from around the world who bring their unique experience and perspectives. Hello and welcome to another episode of Coaching in Conversation. At this time, I have the great pleasure of talking with Dr. Julie Luscombe, who is a professional coach and historically has held positions as a a mental health nurse, a lecturer in higher education and senior positions in public health, focusing very much around stress, burnout, and. All subjects related to mental health and wellbeing in her time since transitioning from full-time employment in that sector to being a coach. Julie has found herself really, really developing a wonderful coaching practice in the area of stress and burnout. Given that this is a subject and a characteristic, unfortunately, of our world right now that's very prevalent and is something that I know many coaches are seeing coming into their coaching work we thought that this might be a really interesting and valuable conversation to listen to. So I hope you enjoy, and this episode is called Working With Burnout in Coaching. Julie, thank you so much for agreeing to be a guest on the Coaching and Conversation podcast. It's, I've been really looking forward to this and it's lovely to have you here. Thank you. I'm looking forward to it too. As we know from coaching and conversations, some of the things that we talk about is how coaches are. Utilizing coaching in different ways within society. And you know, there's obviously the standard leadership coaching and executive coaching and business coaching, but there are so many other wonderful ways that people are using coaching. And you come to mind when I think of some of those and. I know that you have a nursing and medical background originally, so I guess the opening thing would be, fill us in a little bit on how did you transition from that into being a coach? Yeah, sure. Well, I've had, I've been lucky enough to have three different careers, but that were all interlinked. So mental health nursing absolutely was the starting point with that. Before moving into a public health sector, but again, very much linked to mental health. I was very much responsible for the mental health prevention, suicide prevention strategy that we put together locally, but also then I transitioned into senior lecturer for. I'm in Jersey, by the way. I should have said that probably. And worked very closely with a university on the UK to deliver programs locally. And the reason why all those three are relevant. Are they all involved? Supporting people to reach. Their potential in some way. Mm-hmm. And usually people that were actually quite disadvantaged, whether that was because of mental health problems or because they were disadvantaged in terms of public health or because I worked with a particular sector of nurses who were like me, trained in what I called the old days in the eighties where you did not need a degree to become. A nurse. It was very much vocational then, but over the decades, things have changed and there was a whole generation of nurses who felt the need to catch up. So I was supporting that particular cohort of people to get their degrees as a top up and all the anxieties and uncertainties and the imposter syndrome that went along with that in terms of helping people to realize their own potential and they were capable of doing it. And it was when the pandemic came along, actually, when I was working as a head of education up at our local hospice, that I came across a webinar by somebody as though she's quite a well-known UK coach called Tracy Forsyth, who led us through, who did some stuff for the DI Institute of Directors Jersey, and led us through some really, really interesting visualization exercises. In terms of where we would like to be in five years, which is quite difficult at the time because no one knew what was happening tomorrow, let alone in five years at that time. But it, it actually unlocked something in me that I didn't really know was there because I found myself writing on the bit of paper. She was leading us through the task in terms of describe what your work is looking like. In five years, I'd suddenly written out of seemingly nowhere I'm gonna be working. Less hours. I will have, I'll be in a coaching role and I'm like, I don't even know where that came from, but it sowed a seed and I put it in a drawer and I forgot about it. But as our brain does with its filtering system, my reticular activating system obviously kicked in.'cause all of a sudden I started seeing adverts for coaching. Courses all over the place. Now, they hadn't suddenly appeared, but I was starting to notice them because my brain had tweaked. This was something that was important to me. So I used, when we were all in lockdown for possibly the second time, I used my, my holiday money and my holiday time.'cause nobody was going anywhere at that point to train with you, Tracy. Which was fantastic. It was all done online, which I'd resisted as well 'cause I wanted to do it in person, but there was no choice at that. At that point, but loved it online and what had initially started out with me thinking, oh, this could be a retirement plan, something I could do when I finished work. I loved it so much. I thought, no, I wonder if, I wonder if I could make this work and actually have a go at doing it myself. That might have stayed just an idea, but. Because I loved my job. I loved my job when I was head of education up at the hospice, but they took my team away in the pandemic because they were clinical educators and they never gave them back. So my, because they needed them clinically. So my job changed and it wasn't what I wanted it to be anymore. So I took that as the signal to have a go and leap into coaching. So that was how I got into coaching. That didn't end up how I meant it, how I planned it to be, either because I was all about the flourishing. At first. I was like, I wanna help people flourish at work and find their best selves, et cetera, et cetera. Nobody was in a flourishing state of mind at the time as we were just coming out of the pandemic and what people were coming to me with, mainly because I'm known in the healthcare sector or education sector, so. That's what I was known for. They were coming to me with feelings of overwhelm and wanting to get some head space and some clarity back. And so no one was even thinking about what they might want in the future, what their future self might be wanting because they were too busy trying to work out how to survive the week. So it very much turned into, and I resisted that as well. I was thinking, oh my gosh, you know this is not where I thought it was gonna take me, but it's what people were wanting and needing. And the more I listened and the more I worked with individuals, I just thought this is. This is something that's really important and I can't really ignore it. So I went on to specialize in specifically burnout coaching, and that's where I am now. Nearly, nearly four years down the line. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Gosh, what a journey. And I mean, what really strikes me quite a bit about that, that story, Julie, is. His best laid plans. Yeah, how, how? It's interesting, isn't it? How and maybe this is just reflecting a little bit where I'm at in life at the moment, but I think, you know, our head can tell us one thing that we're going to do this or we'd like to do that, or we plan to do this other thing and yet somehow something else conspires. For something different to emerge. You know, whether it's you suddenly noticing courses or your energy is taking you somewhere, or you are being drawn into conversations by people's requests of you. You know, it's almost as though this part of that journey has led you rather than you leading it. That's what it feels like. Yeah. Which, which is, which is kind of, you know, I don't know, maybe I'm getting a bit too, too spiritual about it, but it feels quite soul driven in a way, you know, rather than just, I'm going to do this. Yeah. Which is, which is lovely. And I can't believe it was that long ago. I think that course was the very first lockdown course that we did because we'd been working in person and I think that, I think that cohort that you, Ron was the, yeah. Was the trial of trying to keep going with lockdown and, and turning. Yeah. And it worked really well. Yeah. Yeah, it did. It did actually. It did. Anyway, I'd love to hear more then about what you're doing and I'm also noticing, which maybe we can tease out. What's coming up for me is this, is this blurring almost that there is around. What's coaching and what's therapy. Mm-hmm. Course you have a, a, you know, a very robust background in mental health on, on several levels as you've described, and. And, and, and a lot of coaches who maybe don't have that background are also experiencing clients coming in with growth. Yes. You know, and will be more so I think with the world the way it is at the moment. Yeah. So, so what's, you know, tell us a little bit more then about, about the work that you're doing initially. Yeah, well, I went, I went and got a, a, a specific certification for my own, my own feeling of credibility around that, even though I'm a mental health nurse. Mm-hmm. I just felt, and I intuitively felt I was responding in a way that I was happy with. I just felt I need, it felt too important to not actually go away and do some further quite intensive CPD around it. So I worked with the Balance Ology Institute, Jane Morris. Who you probably know through the ICF and, and got a certification through them, which, which has taken me in a different direction because when I started I was very much pure coaching. I was ju I was asking the questions, I was listening, I was working my way through the competencies, not obviously, so, but I always had them in my mind in terms of this is how I'm coaching and they still are, but I was resisting using tools and strategies at that point. But what I found was when you are feeling, particularly with healthcare staff, 'cause I'm, they're not predominantly all of my clients, but they are, there are a fair proportion of them are, are healthcare staff and their heads were so all over the place. They needed almost more of a container than the coaching questions I was asking for people who were not necessarily overwhelmed and just wanted to explore what next perhaps. And so I had to come to some sort of personal comfort of thinking. Okay. I'm actually gonna start using some tools and strategies that are specifically around burnout and just calming the nervous system down, but also calming the thinking, the thinking down. Really simple, simple stuff because you need simple, when your head is full of, I don't know what to do the next hour, let alone it's, if, if I tried to go too broad, it would just, it was freaking people out. So very much, a much more of a containing approach. And I started to worry that I was maybe going away from coaching at that point, but actually, Tracy, that's not how it's worked out.'cause I've found almost without exception that two or three conversations worth in when the mind has settled and the heads, they've got enough space to think clearly and logically about their situation and what to do about it. That's when. All the exploration comes back in and people will start to go, oh, actually what if this, or what if that? So their minds are free enough to start exploring in a different way. And then it moves much more into an area in to of what our training taught us to do in terms of. A much more freer exploration and going where they need to go, wherever that may be. Mm-hmm. Whereas in the beginning I've had to take a much more containing approach. And your question about that healthcare background is interesting.'cause initially I tried to keep the two very separate. Like I'm an, I'm a, I was a nurse. I am still registered at mental health nurse, but I'm not practicing clinically. And I thought, I don't want that to come into the coaching space. I want to be a coach. And then I started to realize, no, this needs to be integrated, not in a terms of a practicing nurse, but so many strengths that I brought with me as a nurse. So common with the ICF competencies and the ethical framework. So it's all about boundaries. It's all about holding space. It's all about that active listening. So I bought so much with me from a nursing perspective, but it did give me, I would say, a heightened risk antenna. Particularly when people are, are feeling overwhelmed and I wondered what I would do with that in a coaching, in a coaching scenario. It's never felt like it's crossed over. I've never felt I might have signposted people on a couple of occasions to perhaps services that they may find useful if that's something they have indicated. But I have to be honest, it's mostly been about holding space and because I'm always comfortable with strong emotions from the mental health nursing side of it. It doesn't feel like therapy. It feels like another human being listening, very active listening, because sometimes being heard is just what people need at that point, and being able to hold that strong emotion, which is part of the coaching competencies. And that real presence there that I don't feel it's ever tipped over into therapy, but I take that supervision quite often just to check that that's why supervision is so valuable in terms of if there's something, if there's a client I might be concerned, concerned about, but that's not been the problem I thought it was gonna be. I made lots of assumptions like, oh, you know, is this gonna be a bit too much of a crossover and it hasn't been the case. Yeah, that's fascinating, isn't it? And, and. You know what also strikes me, what you are saying here is that in many cases, whether it's burnout or other things that are troubling people, what I'm noticing as well, like you, is that. What people are needing at the moment is just the container. Yeah. You know, if nothing else, they don't even necessarily need our fancy questions. Yeah. What they need is, is, is safety and Yeah. And being witnessed, being seen, being heard. Which is, which is also, you know, beautifully embedded in coaching. Yeah. That doesn't have to be therapeutic. Yeah. But it's not. Following a, a, a competency model that's maybe quite, you know, as, as, as practical as we might be thinking, but Yeah. But it's very much needed at the moment. Yeah. But, and what's what's really interesting is that most of my healthcare clients are paying me privately that's not coming through an organization. Mm-hmm. It's. And it is, that gives you an indication of the need for it when someone is putting their hand in their own pocket and thinking something has to change. But I don't know what it's, that has to change, but I, something has to change. Yeah. So that is a real indicator of the need there at the moment. It's not all healthcare staff though, to be quite honest.'cause I do quite a few talks around it in our corporate sector. Problems. It's a human issue. Absolutely. Because it doesn't, I've spoken to lawyers, I've spoken to people in the finance sector. I've spoken to people in the tech business and the, and they're all recognizing the stuff that I talk about. It is just heartbreaking actually. Yeah. But actually heartbreaking. But also, that's the thing about this work, and I resisted it because I thought this is gonna be really quite an emotional pull. You know, it's gonna be, it'll pack an emotional punch for me if that's all I'm doing. But it hasn't, and it is pretty much 80% of all I'm doing, I would say, is burnout work. But it hasn't been that. It's been, there are elements of absolute joy when people get their thinking space back and feel like they're finding them again. And then looking at, they get excited then about, okay, what next? What could I be doing? What different ways of working could I be adopting? What decisions do I need to make? And remembering they've got choice. Remembering they've got levels of control and remembering that the decisions that they've got are theirs and they can make those depending on their own unique circumstances. So that's when it turns from something that is quite worrying, but not a great place to be for them at the time into realizing that. No, I'm okay actually, and I can do something about this. Yeah. So which, so it doesn't feel like a depressing area to work in at all. It's, it feels, it's quite an exciting area to work in.'cause you can see a real change in people. Hmm. It's interesting, isn't it, because. What, what's coming up for me there is this really this idea of we are creative, resourceful, and whole. And sometimes if someone is experiencing burnout or they're, you know, they're coming outta a burnout experience or something, they can feel very under-resourced. Yeah. They don't feel as though they're okay and yet. And yet the work as you are describing, it reminds them and anchors them back into the fact that actually, yes, I am. Okay. Yeah. I can be feeling. Like there's mayhem and I don't feel always in control. And they can still be feeling some of those circumstantial things. Yeah. But they can come back to a place where they think, and I can do this. Yes. And so it's, that's at the heart of coaching, isn't it? That they are creative, resourceful, and whole, even though. At the beginning, they may not feel that way. Yeah. And also reminding them that there is support out there because when, particularly with burnout or, or not even getting as far as burnout but overwhelm, you feel often you're the only person that's feeling like that and that everybody else is coping absolutely fine. And there are some amazing resources out there now in terms of, there's Dr. Rachel Morris who does the You Are Not A Frog Podcast. She specifically focuses her work on busy healthcare. Professionals who are time poor. So very pragmatic approach. So I'm often signposting her resources there, but there's so much more and it's just growing and growing all the time. Yeah. And 'cause there's a level of shame I think with burnout still. It's a particular, I dunno whether it's particular to healthcare workers, but I'm certainly seeing it in terms of. When you're a healthcare worker, you are used to dealing with emergencies. You are used to dealing with life, big things in life. And you, and you do those well, if you're trained well, you're gonna do those Well, it's hard then. I mean, 'cause often they're walking towards situations that other people will walk away from. And they might still be doing that perfectly competently, but if you are feeling broken inside, it's hard to actually ask for help when you are the one that's supposed to be the competent professional that's looking after everybody else. So I think people are asking for help later. Than they perhaps should do because of the many things inside of us that stop us asking for help. So I think the more people talk about it, the more people will recognize themselves and realize, okay, this, you know, this isn't me. I'm, I'm not broken inside. There's a set of circumstances here that are, that are really making it quite difficult to thrive in our world at the moment. Yeah. It's interesting that you say about shame as well, because in so many ways, you know, mental health has. We think less shame attached to it now than it has in the past. And yet with burnout, it seems to still be a little bit shameful. And yeah, I, I had an experience recently with someone that I was talking to where not only did she feel sh sh ashamed, but she felt shamed. By her colleagues and, and this was a doctor who Yeah. You know, absolutely topping out and sharing with some colleagues that she maybe needed to, to step back. And, and the attitude was, was along the lines of, well, if you can't, you know, stand the heat, get out of the kitchen, kind of, yeah. You know, not, not what she expected, not, not the support that she expected, which of course is. You know, that's interesting in itself, isn't it? That there is still some challenge around this. Oh, definitely. I was watching on the coaching.com recent webinars. There was Dr. Tanya Uric, I think her name, Natasha Uric. Natasha, yeah. And I just bought her book Shatterproof because I really liked what she was saying and she was talking about grit, gas, lighting, and what you just gave as a perfect example of that. Yeah. In terms of. You, you are open enough to say, I'm struggling with this, et cetera, and someone will either brush it off saying, you know, should be able to deal with this, or things like, oh, you are usually so strong, you usually cope so well. Or just power on through. You're just like, no, I can't power on through. If I could power on through, I would be doing that without, without asking for self. And we, we've also almost confused the word professionalism with with being able just to get on and do stuff. Whereas for me, professionalism is actually admitting when things are tough and asking for help and resources so that you continue to do your job to the best of your ability. Yeah. I did just a signpost, a, a previous podcast actually. I did one with a, a coach called Janet Wilson's probably a year or more ago now, and it was called resilience or Repression. Mm-hmm. And we were challenging this idea of, you know, resilience is banded about now as this huge word, possibly as a result of the fact that a lot of people aren't feeling that resilient. Yeah. And yet resilience seems to actually be. Just shut up and get on with it. Yes, yes. You know, and is that, is that really what resilience is? Or are we just repressing Yeah. How people are really feeling because it's, it's not okay to be honest about it, which absolutely. I, I think, you know, one of the things I've said many times to, to different people is I think coaching has such a valuable role to play here because I think about that gray space, if you like, between coaching and therapy. And one of the things that I think is problematic in the therapeutic setting that overloads the system, is that people are dropping down too far before they get help. Yeah. Be. And, and, and that to me is where the gift of coaching could come in. Because if we could come in earlier in some Yeah. You know, wellbeing, decline if you like, then we wouldn't get to the place perhaps where, where Oh totally. You know, more formal mental health strategies are needed. So it's a, it's a really important area of work. Have you seen or any of your listeners, I would recommend if they haven't. There's Nick Re's work, he's a leadership researcher who has done a, a big piece of research around burnout over the last couple of years, which is excellent. He's on LinkedIn and he publishes his stuff on LinkedIn as he's doing it, which is fantastic in terms of having to go and search through journals. But he's got a wonderful infographic that is, that he calls the burnout curve. And it describes beautifully what you just said, Tracy, that if we could come in at the, as the curve is starting to dip. When people are noticing when things are not going so well for them. If we could get to people at that point, or they could find us at that point, we can get them across the curve without having to go down the dip because the other side of the curve, which is what I do see as well, people coming out the other side often have some amazing reflections on, even if they've been in in a. Not the most helpful workplace setting that has meant they've had to be more resilient than, than they perhaps would've normally needed to be. Even if they were in those sorts of situations, they can still see things that they had done to maybe contribute to that situation. For example, not setting clear boundaries, saying yes when their mind was screaming. No. Not prioritizing stuff out of work so that their head was in a different space. Yeah. Lots of things they could spot that they couldn't spot at the time, but if we'd had those conversations earlier on, we could have stopped that before it got to that point. But then there's the lovely other bit, right at the other end of the curve, which is the post-traumatic growth bit, which again, I see that all the time and it's, and you're like, I wish people didn't have to go through the bottom of the curve. To realize that there is a different way. I've got one lady I was working with about 18 months ago now I won't mention the profession, but she said to me well this is just what happens. This is just what happens. Every two. I work ridiculously long hours and I've got a big caseload, and every two years I'll just crash and burn, be off work for three months. And then I'll go back and I'll find, and I'm fine. There was flaws in that thinking clearly.'cause she wasn't fine. But that's, it's almost like thinking that, well this is normal for work now. Yeah. When it isn't, it really isn't. And of course the gaps between her burnout experiences were getting shorter and shorter because her body and her nervous system weren't, weren't recovering enough. And she was just willing to push herself to that level and take the three months off every two years just to keep going and she'd forgotten the capacity to do something different. Yeah, I mean, I, I think that is an incredibly important point because in, if you think about normalizing, in some ways we are miraculous as human beings, aren't we? Mm-hmm. Because we can accommodate and assimilate and recalibrate to many different. Situations and pressures and criteria and goals, et cetera. Mm-hmm. But that, there's the other side of that coin where stress is normalized. Yeah. Anxiety is normalized. Panic attacks are normalized. Yeah. You know, and and that is not. Normal, no. Or, or shouldn't be, perhaps. You know, it seems to be quite normal now in terms of many, you know, cultural norms in, in, in organizations or in different systems, et cetera. Mm. But each time that is eroding, isn't it? That baseline? You know, I remember, I remember this from when I, when I learned addiction therapy theory years ago, how. We've got this amazing capacity to, to recover from a bingeing, you know, a drinking binge. Yeah. Hence the hangover is we are trying to get back Yeah. To that stable place. And yet every time you do that, it erodes you to the point where your baseline drops. Yes. Drop, drop, yeah. And then there comes a point where. You know, one drink and you are, you're dead, kind of thing. Yes. Yeah. So it it's that same thing, isn't it, with that window of her burnout experiences getting shorter. Getting shorter and shorter. Absolutely. Yeah. One of the things I'm thinking about here, Julie, I mean, clearly you've got a, you know, a, a beautiful history that really underpins what you are doing here in terms of some of the knowledge that you do have. Mm-hmm. And they're going, there are perhaps going to be. Hopefully many listeners listening to this who don't necessarily want to become burnout specialist coaches, but who are facing burnout in their work. Yeah, because it's, it's quite prevalent, isn't it? In fact, I was supervising a group just earlier where two of them out of outta five people, reported that their clients had had panic attacks in the last time since we last met as a group. Yeah. So, you know, this is, this is quite a thing to, to use the technical term, to what some coaches I know can feel anxious about. You know, what is my role here? How do I navigate this? Should I even be addressing it? I mean, there's, there's, there's quite a lot of uncertainty, isn't there? Yes, there is. So what would you say to a coach that perhaps does not have your kind of background in terms of them? Being best equipped to handle these things if and when they come into the room. Mm-hmm. Well, the first thing I would say, there's two things really. The first thing I would say is, is go and find. Don't read about it in terms of, of what the burnout experience or overwhelm experience looks like. But there's lots of, there's especially in, I know, I know we talked about time sensitivity of when this is going out, but there were some recently some ICF free webinars in coaching week. Which are probably still available. Yeah. Yeah. And if, if you, if your listeners look at theology website, there are lots of videos on there linked to this particular issue. So I would, I would. Read a lot about it. Listen to webinars about it. But the other thing I would say is just be human. That is the most important thing. It's about meeting somebody as another human being because it's easy to feel panicked thinking I should, what should I be doing? Or I should be doing something here. When actually it's about, it is about that listening and it's about the presence and taking a coaching approach, even if it's a signposting area. So what else would help you here? What other types of support might help you rather than, we talked a lot in supervision about signposting during this time because if you signpost too quickly, it can feel like you are shutting down that person's experience. And they will be less likely to, and you are the person that they've chosen to tell. If they're sitting in front of you, they could have chosen to go to a therapist, they could have chosen to go to a counselor. But if they're sitting in front of you and talking to you about something that's important to them, they have chosen to tell you that. And it might be the first time they have told somebody about how they're feeling and if we shut them down too quickly at that point, the likelihood is that not only will they not tell you necessarily. Anymore, but they're not necessarily, they'll feel it's not a safe place to talk about how they're feeling, but they might not be likely to go and see somebody else either. So it is about just keeping your coach sort of mindset on and think, listen really closely listening and being present, but then think what else would help you here? Because even if I wouldn't signpost to a particular counselor or therapist, because. I know several, but that doesn't mean they would be the right person for that particular person. So I would be telling them about the BACP website, you know, the British Association of of Counselors and Psychotherapists website. So they could make their own choice if that's what they wanted to do. But I think the biggest piece of advice I would say is settle. Settle yourself and listen. And don't panic and ask the questions that you and know will be right to ask. Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I love what you're saying on all levels there, Julie, and, and this idea of don't panic was coming up for me as well.'cause that is often a response that I notice anyway. Or, or yeah. You know, and, and a dis-ease with, with dealing with it. Yeah. And it, it, I guess it sort of tests our. Ability to sit with the unknown, isn't it? Yeah. Because we don't, we don't know how serious it is. We don't know quite what to do. We don't know how to engage, but we have to sort of sit with that, don't we, in a way? And, and go to supervision. Yeah. And go to supervision. Of course, there's a good, good sales promotion there. Yeah. Services, which of course is, is vital with it. Yeah. But also to, to, like you say, just to be human and be present with the person. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm just noticing the time. I can't believe when we're having fun. That's what they say, isn't it? Yeah. Fine. But is there anything else that you'd like to share? Anything that we've not. You know, managed to cover or anything particularly about the work that you are doing, your aspirations for your work. Anything else that you'd like to sort of share with our listeners before we pause for today? I would just because you made the point earlier on saying that more and more people are gonna, are gonna come into coaching sessions. Distressed for whatever reason, because the world is tough at the moment, whether it's work, whether it's financial pressures, whether it's worried about the political situation, whatever. And I don't think we as coaches can ignore that they've chosen to come to us for a reason. So it is about, it is about if you are interested in this area. Then learn more about it. It's fascinating. It's a really interesting area to work in, and even if you don't wanna specialize in overwhelm and burnout, it's gonna come into your room or to your zoom space at some point, and you will be so much more better prepared if you've started to read about it or think about it in that way. So I would say don't shy away from it. It's a fascinating area of work, and there's a great community of coaches developing out there that are specializing in this, that are very, very supportive of each other. Mm mm That's lovely. Thank you. And I, I also notice, unfortunately, that there's also a bit of a trend of burnout within the coaching community. There is. Do you know what? I was lucky enough to be invited to the St. Louis. In the USA chapter of the ICF to talk about that very thing.'cause they had picked that up. So I was talking to them about burnout in coaches in terms of avoiding that in there, because especially if you're self-employed, I mean self-employed people are high risk of burnout anyway. Yeah. But then, we, again, the work we do does pack an emotional punch sometimes. So anything that involves people and emotions. Mm-hmm. So it is, it is about, for me, I know I have to practice what I preach. Tracy, or I wouldn't be a very credible burnout coach. So I do really, really do live by all the tools that I use, but also that for me, professionalism in this area of work is not. Booking too many clients. It's making sure my caseload is very manageable, that there is supervision in place that CPD is up to date. I'm fascinated by the area. Anyway, so that's not, it's not really a chore, but that I have balance in terms of my working hours at the type of work I do and what I do outside of that, so that I show up in the best possible place for the people that I work with. Hmm. Well, I mean, that's just music to our ears, isn't it really to hear that, Julie? And it is it, you are right. It's so important because you as a coach are an instrument of your work, aren't you? The same. Yeah. And and it's so, it's, it's not just about being in service to ourselves, which of course we have every right to have our own wellbeing. Yeah. It is also in service of our client work. Yeah. Because, you know, we can't all go down together. We've somehow got to help each other lift out of, of these situations, haven't we? Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you so much. I've really enjoyed this. Oh, you're welcome. I've enjoyed it as well. Yeah. Thank you for sharing ideas and resources. And, and it's really uplifting as well to hear that although you are working in what is, you know, one of the harder edges of this work. It is still inspiring and uplifting and I really get that sense when someone does turn a corner and they realize actually I have got this, I can do this. Yeah, I mean that's just, that's transformative, isn't it? That's It is. It's the best. It is the best. And I'm lucky 'cause most of my work is one-to-one face-to-face.'cause I live on an island, so I see people afterwards all the time and it is joyful to see the differences that they've made. Yeah. Well, on that note, keep, keep up the good work. Maybe thank, we should say, I mean, it's obviously a huge contribution and you, you clearly love it. So thank you so much for sharing your thoughts on it today. Oh, thanks for inviting me. Tracy. You have been listening to Coaching in Conversation. By Tracy Sinclair, a podcast aimed at exploring how coaching is a vehicle for human development in today's and tomorrow's world. You can learn more about coach training and development@tracysinclair.com and follow us on social media. If you enjoyed this podcast, please leave a rating and review and also share it with your networks to help us expand our reach. 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