Hello, my name is Tracy Sinclair and welcome to Coaching in Conversation, the Mastery Series. This series of conversations explore. As the concept of mastery in coaching, and I have the great pleasure of talking with several ICF master certified coaches from around the world to understand what mastery really means to them, both as coaching practitioners and also as human beings. We explore many different. Of this topic, and I hope it is of use and interest to you as you continue to navigate your own pathway of development. Hello, it's Tracy Sinclair here again and welcoming you to another episode of Coaching in Conversation. This episode is part of our Mastery series, and today I have the great pleasure of talking with Elena Chelokidi, who is a colleague of mine from several years ago within the ICF community when she and I were both presidents of a local chapter. And since that time, Elena has been very, very active, not just as a coach, but also a mentor, a publisher. A psychologist, a public speaker on coaching, and also teaching team coaching, which is an area that she really specializes in. She is also apart from publishing and translating many materials in, in the field, she has also won a Young Leaders Award with the ICF for her significant contribution to the marketplace and to the field of coaching. So I really hope that you enjoy this e. This episode it's titled, developing Mastery by Working With Teams. Enjoy. So Elena, it's such a pleasure to have the opportunity to reconnect with you. And before we clicked record just now, we were just trying to work out how long ago it was that we. Saw each other and it was quite a few years ago. Which is a shame in a way because I think we caught up quite a few times in different ICF meetings and conferences. But it's still a great pleasure to reconnect with you today and thank you so much for coming to talk about coaching and perhaps your thoughts on mastery in coaching. Let's start off. Just inquiring about how you came into coaching yourself in the first place. Hello, Tracy. I'm very glad to see you again too. I suppose it's about six years passed from our last meeting how I got into coaching. It was an interesting story. I was the executive director in one company and then I tired and I decided to quit. And I was sitting in a kitchen with my friend and we were thinking, what should I do next? It was 2000 12, I suppose. And she said to me, she is, her field is marketing and she works in the university. She said, me, you should try coaching. And I, and asked what, what coaching is? And she said, okay, you'll liked, you have already done it. You'll like, and after that, exactly at that moment I found it in internet, two schools of coaching. And we have decided that I will go to the nearest, to my house. So after that, I go there and I met there, Marsha, Marsha Reynolds, and I was very surprised. And I thought, oh, I want to be like your so well, this is the way how I got into coaching. And here you are. Yeah. Yes. At last I was president of YCF chapter and I'm an MCC now. Wonderful. For me, it was really like a fairy tale. Mm mm Sorry. A nice fairy tale. So let, let's start then with this topic of, of mastery. I guess mastery generally, and, and mastery in coaching, which is a bit more specific. When, when you think of mastery in our work, what is it that that evokes for you generally? First I will say several words about mastery is general. I think it's about balance between. Pleasure of doing something and result that we have. I think that when we must, we do our best and we have great results, but at the same time, we don't think about how to do that, how to do this, and we don't nervous. We just leave in the process and we have the result like a master. So, and about coaching my goal when I decided to become an MCC and it was conscious choice. I wanted to make my sessions naturally and at the same time I wanted them to feed. MCC requirements. So it was my huge goal when I started my journey and I could say that I achieved it because when I sent my sessions to ICF it was, as I remember, 2020 second, I sent them my sessions from 2020. Because I couldn't find a mentor who could assess it. And I decided, okay, ICF will assess it. And I se sent them session by session. It was my sessions with people and I couldn't say that I was very okay. I don't think, I thought a lot about my competencies. While, while I do that. And two of them two of my sessions, ICF said, okay, it's MCC level. So my story, for me, it's both about pleasure during the process and about the result. Mm-hmm. Mm. It's how I could express it. That's great. And there's something else that you said in there that's really interesting is you said you wanted to be natural to coach naturally and meet the ICF requirements at the same time. And that's a question that has been asked so many times, isn't it? You know, how do I, how do I meet the ICS requirements and just be. Myself. What, what do you think helped you bring those things together? Because it's such a challenging thing for many, for many of us, I think. Hmm. Let me think. What helped me, Let me share several, several points, several different points maybe on the topic. The first time that was important for me, it was dialogue with Benita Staffords meet. I'm sure you know here very well and, we talked about PCC level and a CC level and the MC level, and I asked her, how could I understand that? I'm at MCC level, Pinta, how could I, and she asked me, how do you know, how do you know that you at PCC level? Okay, I could assess my a c. C. Sessions and I can look at them and see what's not perfect and what don't don't meet PCC requirements. I, I could assess it. And she said, okay, so how could you understand that you're at MCC level? I said, I think I could look at my PCC sessions and could understand what's, what's wrong with them or what's perfect with them. And it was my. Like self-assessment marker whether I live in the session and couldn't understand what is happening, bad or not bad or something else, and or I cautious, conscious during the sessions and could understand what is going on and what, what do am I, what my client say. And that's, I think this is the huge point. How could I understand that? I'm nature because I'm living through the session and at the same time understand that it is a good result or it's MCC or not, because I, I really felt the moment when. I could look at my PCC at my own PC sessions from the side, because at that time I was an assessor for PCC level. I could look at other sessions, why not? But it it was rather different to look at my own sessions. This is one point another, when I talked with led. About my sessions. It was one from my side. It was perfect session, and I sent it to her and she she sent it back and we had a call and she's, it's a really perfect session, but it is not an MC level how, how it could be. And she talked to me that. She couldn't understand what exactly, not an MCC level. It's a good PCC and all markers are there, but what's what's wrong? And I said, really? It was a boring session for me. It was really boring session. It was a common request and it was common questions, and I really knew what my client will would say next, and I would ask and said, yes, yes. It's about curiosity. It wasn't interesting for you. I said, no, no, it wasn't interesting. It was session for PCC or MCC. It was just perfect session. I said, no, it's so important when you coach somebody to feel curiosity. And I asked her, but my client went to me. And it means that this topic is very important for him and he brought it to me. So how could I say no? It's not interesting for me. It's at 2050 third. And for example, a request, and she said, no. How could you express it? Please share. And I realized that I, I could say or I see it, it's, it is a really important que request for you, but what lies under it or behind it. And at that, that moment. Maybe my client will share with me something that will be interesting also if, and for me too. So I think it's the second, the second point that relates me with mastering and with nature, my to make sessions. And maybe the third thing is to. Be able and to be really curious with metaphors that our clients brings to us, to our sessions.'Cause I like book I in Wonderland and about curiosity. I very often remind the book Sherlock Holmes. And I feel myself as she cols and I'm very curious. So, and another book is Alice in Wonderland. For me it was like a huge metaphor in in that world. Yes. And I feel myself the same way during sessions when my client bring, for example, I want to be Waze. Glass ways, wa or glass or not. And I feel that I see that face and I could ask questions about it and what is what is nearby and why it is. And I feel that it is very, hmm. Important space for our clients where they could express things that they couldn't express directly in our world. So, and two of my sessions for MCC that passed in the past, the exam it was about working with metaphor of clients. So it's also. Mm, about master for me and about curiosity and about, oh, what's interesting, what is going here? And I think it's about also intention to help the client find the way to go through a session with the client. And yes, it's, for me, it's help them to find their way and way out, maybe from the session or something. Wow. That's so interesting, Elena. Thank you. And I've just, I've just written a couple of things down there because I'd love to probe a little bit more there, or, or, or share a comment. First of all, your point about listening to your own work is such a powerful tool, isn't it? And you know, it's something I know. I, I, none of us like to listen to our work, I guess, very much. It's not something that, that that is always enjoyable to do, but I know I have found for myself and I encourage everyone I work with to do that. So, you know, I'm just thinking in terms of people listening to this who want to develop their coaching, whatever credential level they are. Mm-hmm. Really listening to your own work and comparing it to. How it was before or to even share in peer groups, you know, exchanging and discussing our work is so powerful. The other thing that was coming up for me was when you recognized that you were, you were a little bit bored by the topic, you know, or it wasn't something that stimulated you, which is, which was really striking to me on two levels. First of all, the point that you said around. Curiosity, it has to engage your curiosity as well to bring, I guess, to bring your mastery to the surface, but also the, the clean honesty here that a coach could be bored by a topic or a, or a client. You know, we're, we're human as well, and not every conversation at its surface is going to be. Immediately stimulating, perhaps. And so we're, we're, perhaps this is about the partnership again, of really finding where is, where is the piece of work, where is the, the gem, if you like, or the golden nugget in this conversation. Mm-hmm. When I have some kind of boring sessions, I try to find. Really something interesting, maybe interesting word may be interesting, Caucasian. And they say, oh, how interesting this person speaks and it gives me energy to be involved more. Mm-hmm.'Cause when something surprised me, I started to think maybe from another side to the situation or to the, to that person. So thi this is my key to curiosity. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I love also what you said about metaphor, and I know, you know, some people love metaphor and some people don't love metaphor, but I, but I guess what was really coming up for me was two things. There was one about. Really engaging with the way a client likes to process. You know, if a client wants to be in that storytelling or metaphorical language, do we have the capacity to go with them? But also the fact that. Even if metaphor isn't our thing, particularly, there are other creative ways to, to work with clients in a way that sort of lifts the conversation from just transactional language. Just, I dunno if I'm making sense there, but I, I'm just, I'm just curious about the. The slightly altered level that metaphor can take us to, that's, that's often very evocative. And for me, also interesting here let me add to ask, oh, for me to ask opposite questions. When our client also speak about me, me, me, me, me. Okay. What others do think about this situation. When client more speak about emotions, I will ask about a rational part. So for me, it's also interesting to. Now look from the side and to ask questions from the opposite part of the spectrum. And it usually gives huge insights to the client. Oh, I have never think about that. And it helps me, and I took it from cross-cultural approach. Maybe somebody will read about it. I hope, I hope to it helped me. And I also wanted to add about listening our own work, because for me it's really, really hard to listen to my voice. How do I speak and intonation and it ra it is rather easier for me to read my transcripts. So why not? You could transcribe your sessions and then analyze it and what I've done and what I do even nowadays. So maybe some maybe it help somebody Yeah. To turn to their work. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And you mentioned, I know earlier when we were chatting that. You do a lot of work now with teams team coaching and how team coaching has really informed your coaching and supported your MCC development. So te tell us more about that. Yes. It was a, it, it was a huge support to my MCC. Yes, I really, from 2015, I, I'm working with teams and I like their. That I have several, only several levels of work, individual and at the same time, team level. And at the same time, I'm working about on trust and we are moving to the goal and we are working on the, the team working skills. So I like, hmm. Difficult work. So that, that it is interesting for me and I've thought a lot about ICF competencies and teamwork as I was a part of international group that developed team coaching competencies. For example, our third competence contracting. When we start our coaching career, it is usually. Difficult for us to make a contract to the session to speak about important things really, that it is really important for our clients and to communicate what exactly kinds clients want to achieve at the end. But just imagine that we have eight or seven people who don't know exactly what do they want, and. Each person has their own thoughts about the result and have has its own thoughts about what they could or that they could not do. And when you bring together. All opinions in, once I could say single great opinion, and you contact with them what they together want to achieve at the end of the session, and you couldn't. Work with the topic, what is not important for them. Because you will have somebody who will say, why do we talking about that? We are spending our time because somebody, or we don't want to have changes in that team. So after I realized that after my practice in team coaching. I really don't afraid of individual coaching. It's so interesting. Some kind, maybe, maybe simple. And it brings so many pleasure. My work, our individual coaching after teams, after working with teams. So, and what about trust? If you can Mm. Develop trust? Several people at the same time with their different characters, characters with their different temper. So it means that you will be able to develop trust relationship with, with one single person. And for me it's also about other competencies. And for example, when you are present. You have no choice. You should be present with the team because you should understand what is happening at the same moment and what is happening generally at the space and where we go and about questions. For example as you sure know that coach should ask simple and clear questions. One at a time. And you, you have only no choice while you are working with team to ask several question at one time and to ask difficult for understanding questions because you, again, will have somebody in a, in a, in their room who will ask, what exactly have you asked? Could you repeat it again and, and that could you repeat it again and again helps you to formulate your questions very short, very clear in the, to, to have them very understandable for many people, so that's why I could say that. I think team coaching gives a lot of field to develop your individual coaching and to make a huge step to A PCC if you're a A CC or MCC if you're a PCC. Mm-hmm. After you couldn't afraid of person session with one person. Wow. That's so interesting. Elena. I've, I mean, it makes perfect sense now that you've said that, but I, I'd never thought about that, but of course. You know, the complexity, the diversity, the potential for confusion, the potential for difference or conflict, or you know, all sorts of things that you are dealing with in a group or team dynamic. That's very good training, isn't it, for. For coaches or that one-to-one work, when, as you are saying, as we progress through these credential levels. We're looking at working more deeply and more broadly, more, more systemically and contextually, which of course with team coaching you have to do anyway. So that's really fascinating. So there's a piece of advice perhaps for people there if they want to develop their normal coaching skills or their one-to-one coaching skills is work with some. Difficult teams perhaps. So that's fantastic. And I would say for that, people who will think about team coaching, it is a very slightly difference between coaching and facilitation and is very important not to be a facilitator with the teams because if you are, you couldn't feel group dynamics, you will give them. Templates and they will do according to them, and you won't feel but if you're a coach, you feel it and you are un directive, completely un directive. And you will ask, you want red marker or blue marker, for example, because they should have a make a choice. Yeah. Who want to draw or to write? Who will write? So you at, at, the every single moment you are in a dialogue and you are in contact with a group or team. Team in my yeah. Center. So I, I think it's gives very big complexity as you say to develop one-to-one coaching. Mm. I love that idea. I think that's amazing. You'll practice team coach. Yeah, well I have and do work with teams, not, I work more with a one-to-one A admittedly. But I never thought about working with teams to develop towards by MCC. I think that's an amazing idea. Going to have to tell everybody about that. So I'm just thinking then. Elena, if you've already shared some really, really useful things. But if, if there's coaches listening here who maybe do have their PCC or even if they have their a CC and, but they're really keen to, to go for their MCC at some point, not that as coaches we give advice.'cause of course we don't, we don't do that. But if you were going to offer something to people who are thinking about that. What, what would you, what would you say? What would you offer up to them? Hmm. I will offer, please stay natural while you coaching.'cause it's so difficult to play some role while you coach and it's so difficult to, to work when you coach. So try to feel pleasure and stay curious and feel it like a play while you're coaching. And I think you become MCC. Mm-hmm. And I have a question to ask you about that I get asked so many times and I don't always have a, a good answer for this. So I'm wondering if you have a better one, is this question around how so many of us can feel very uncomfortable when the work is being recorded. Which of course, at the moment we have to do this because of sending in recordings. And I, I hear so many times that people feel so uncomfortable and they feel they have to perform. Do you have any guidance on how people can just get more comfortable with that process? With recordings? Yeah. From my side for example, it is very important to know that something could be re recorded or something could be cutted. If, if if something goes wrong it doesn't mean that I will cut something, but it is like a trick for my mind just to relax. It could be changed. Nothing should be perfect. It's not, not final version, version. Just relax. It helps me. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's it's just one of those things, isn't it? That for some people it really can get in the way. And I, I usually recommend that people record as much as they can. Respecting copyright and data protection, of course. So that the recording becomes less of an issue, it just becomes less, less conscious. But I know that it's, I know that it's something that troubles people, so I'm just noticing the, the time and we are. Probably going to have to start coming to a pause soon, but just before we do that, Elena, is there anything else that, from your, you know, incredible experience as a coach and a team coach, is there anything else that you would like to share that we've not covered in terms of how coaches can just keep developing in, in the best way possible? I think I want to share once more advice maybe. While we were talking, I reminded that it is very important to completely forget about yourself during your coaching at master level. I do. That's maybe my difference from my PCC level also.'cause I completely forget about me as Elena, how do I look from the side? How do I behave? How do I really don't think about it? I think completely about my client team or individual client. Mm-hmm. And I think it will help somebody to become a C two. Yeah. You are reminding me of that classic statement of we have to get out of our own way. So it's it's, yeah. That, that's, that's, that's the, the solution to many of our challenges, isn't it? Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Eleena. It's been such a pleasure to catch up with you again and, and I hope it's not another six or seven years before we talk. I hope so. I hope. I hope so. I hope so. But it's been so lovely to catch up with you, and thank you very much for sharing your thoughts and perspectives. Thank you. You have been listening to Coaching in Conversation, the Mastery Series. A podcast that takes a look at mastery and coaching, what it is, what that means, how do we nurture or cultivate it, and many other interesting questions. You can hear more about coaching, education and development@tracysinclair.com and follow us on social media. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a rating and a review. And also share it with your network to help us expand our reach. Thank you for listening and see you next time.