Hello, my name is Tracy Sinclair. Welcome to Coaching and Conversation. Coaching in Conversation is a chance to discuss and explore, not just how we can keep developing. And ensuring as coach practitioners, but also to consider how coaching is evolving and its future potential and place as a powerful vehicle for human development in today's and tomorrow's world. I'll be sharing some of my own thoughts on these topics. And we will also hear from some great guests from around the world who bring their unique experience and perspectives. Hi everyone, it's Tracy Sin with another episode of Coaching in Conversation. This time I'm talking with another Tracy, Tracy Reida, who is an MCC from Sydney in Australia. Tracy has been coaching since 2001, and she has a very extensive experience as a coach ranging from coaching, C-suite executives, general leaders parents, families, teenagers all sorts of different contexts. She also has a master's in education and has continued to learn and attend training herself. All of the time across her career, and she really believes in the power of continuing learning. She also functions as a coach educator. She lectures and teaches. She's a supervisor and a mentor coach, and she has played an integral part over the years in supporting and working with the ICF chapters in a Australasia. I have a great pleasure to introduce the conversation with Tracy today, and today's episode is called The Journey Towards Coaching Maturity. Enjoy. Well, Tracy, thank you so much for. Agreeing to have this conversation with me. It, I think this is going to be the Tracy and Tracy show today. And but I'm, so, I'm so happy to have the opportunity to talk with you and maybe before we start, why don't you share a little bit with us about who you are and, and what you do. Oh, okay. So I'm Tracy with no E as you are. Tracy, Tracy Re living in Sydney, Australia. With my husband and our Border Collie. I'm I have a couple of adult children and I have been working in the coaching space for, since 2001, so what's that, 24 years now. So quite a long time. And over the years I have, I was working as a an executive coach, a parent coach into a bit of golf mind coaching 'cause I'm a very keen golfer. And then as I developed my own competency and my own mastery, so to speak I moved into the assessing space and the mentoring space and, and the coaching education space. So. Pretty much the last 25 years or 24 years, my life has been coaching in some way, shape, or form. Yeah. Something that I, I love to do and I, I really enjoy the, the transformational space of coaching where people are able to understand themselves better, understand their motivations and why they do what they do, and then support them in the change that they, they wanna make. So, yeah, it's, it's a great space to be working in. Hmm, absolutely. And I'm fascinated about the golf coaching. I was just thinking you could challenge Tim Galway and write a competitive book for the inner game of golf, perhaps. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Well, in fact, Tim, Tim Galway's original book or the inner game of tennis and then the in game of golf were part of the inspiration for me to to, to write. I've written a couple of books around. Golf, golf, psychology, golf, mind play, and yeah. So it's been, it's using my coaching psychology education and the work that I do with my clients and the work that I've done on myself to be able to help golfers outsmart their brain, to play their best golf, basically. Yeah. Wow. I had no idea about that. That might be another. Side conversation perhaps would be, yeah, maybe we'll have to do a part two or something. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, you've already referenced today what I really would love to explore with you, which is this idea of mastery. So let's just start with a really broad question of what that word means to you. What does mastery represent? Yeah, it's an interesting word. I really like to, I like to quote Marsha Reynolds on this one because she has a great quote, and that is that mastery is not the increasing of skill. It's really about the deepening of presence. And, and I love that quote because it really speaks to what I believe mastery is all about. So it's, it's not just ticking the boxes and, and getting the, the, you know, the next level in your credential or whatever. It's all about the work that you do on yourself. It's about understanding your own development, understanding your own theory of mind, your own. Level of adult development, basically. Understand your sense making, how you, how you think about things and how you make sense of things. And then being able to bring that into your, your actual sitting with your clients so it increases your level of presence and that you're able to let go of biases and judgements and what you think you should be doing, and just to be there with your client. Brings a level to your coaching that is quite extraordinary really. It really, it's amazing how much your clients open up, which I know, you know, when you are in that deep presence with them. So, yeah, it, it's a, it's almost like a, a goal that a lot of people strive for, but there's actually no destination point from my perspective. It's a journey that you go on and it's. It's a, a continual learning. So we never finish learning as MCC coaches. And, and I, I guess part of the process in all of this is it's not just mastery. There's even the next level, which I would describe as maturity. So it's how do you mature as a coach? So it, it's, it's all combined basically. Yeah. Yeah. I, I love this idea of it not being an, a destination that you arrive at. And I must say that's been with some of the wonderful people I've been talking to, that seems to be a real common theme coming through, which of course is, is that a juxtaposition to that striving goal to get a credential? You know, it's not, not about that. You mentioned Marsha and I had a conversation with her a, a few months ago. And the title of her episode with, with me is Don't Think, just Be There. Which is kind of really exemplifies what you were saying about just that presence rather than more skill development. And then the other thing that I'm curious maybe to hear your thoughts on is this idea of co the, your coaching ability starts to become. As much about you as the practitioner in terms of your own awareness and growth as it does around what you are, how you are behaving with the client that that your own growth is, then what's going to inform that? Mm, very much so. Well, you know, and I dunno who coined this phrase, but you can't coach beyond the level of your own development. And so as you are learning to be a coach. Ideally what happens is the, the the student coach starts to understand themselves better. They start to understand their own abilities and competence, and, and they start to improve their own level of adult development and, and shift from one to the next. And as they expand their. Thinking and become. We, I'm gonna use this phrase that Bob Keegan has coined the subject object shift. So instead of being subject to things, you're able to then become see greater perspectives and be able to hold yourself more object to the things that previously have caused triggers in you and caused you to flip your lid and, and do and say stupid things that you probably regret. And so as you. Develop your capacity to be able to hold yourself in a larger container, so to speak. You are able to then go through this subject object shift, which then allows that transformation from being, having assumptions or beliefs to things that. Or elements of ourselves that we, we don't actually see all that well. And it allows us to see them, to see how we're trapped by them and then be able to expand them. So when you are the student coach, those things start to occur. So generally what happens if the, if the student coach is open to this, then they're able to go through this. Journey of development towards mastery through their training and then through their ongoing own professional development as the years go by and ultimately move into the higher levels of adult development, into that self-authoring mind or self transforming mind. So yeah, it's absolutely possible. And it requires a lot of self-reflection and a lot of serious looking at yourself. And it's a challenging journey at the best of times. And if you are prepared to be open and vulnerable and honest with yourself, then the possibilities enormous. Yeah, I mean, as I hear you speak, you it, it's so clear to understand why this is a lifelong process because. It's about our, the length of our life that this is something that we're, we are traveling through that understanding of, of ourselves and what it means to be human alongside our development as coach. So how, how could that end until our own life ends really, you know? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And, and it, you know, it reminds me of one of the things I say to, to my student coaches and that is about don't just do coaching. Be a coach. So it's all about that way of being. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And, and I, you know, I stress to them that it's a lifelong journey. It's, and it's not a race. It's not a race to see who can get their a c or their PCC or their MC. It really is, it's about a journey. It's not so much about the destination unless of course it's your luggage, and then it's really important that it's, it's the destination. Absolutely. Yeah. Well, and that says something in itself, doesn't it? So, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm, I'm really curious about one of the things that you shared there, Tracy, around you know, this, this level of self-awareness around our own. Biases, our own responses, reactions, feelings, beliefs, experiences, all of our stuff to use that technical term. Yeah. And you know, that shift, that, that subject object shift, what I notice, and I'm just checking in to see your, your thoughts on this. What I notice with coaches who are at the earlier stages of their development. Like I was, you know, when, when I was first training as a coach as well, is that we can seem to go through that phase of, oh, well I mustn't have any biases, then I have to leave myself outside of the door. I have to deny or ignore or amputate my thoughts and feelings. You, you know, because we are so keen to. Follow the so-called rules of it's all about the client, and yet it's, it's really not that either, is it? So I'm, I'm just wondering what are your thoughts on that subtle, you know, if we go from self-awareness, but it's then not self denial or amputation or you know, parking, what is it do you think that we then do with that? It's interesting because it was a, something that we brought up that came up in our supervision group recently and we, you know, it's the concept of neutrality. Can we ever be neutral? And the answer is simply no. We can't ever be neutral because we have our own contextual influences, our own mental models, our own biases, our own assumptions, our own beliefs. That are going to color the way we think about things, and it's impossible to leave those outside the door. However, it is possible to be aware of them and to be aware of how they may be influencing what is going on for your, the way you are thinking and the way you ask your questions and the way you are being present for your client. So it is possible, and it takes a lot of. Self-reflection, and that was another word we talked about was reflexivity. It's that basically the process of watching ourselves, watching ourself, if that makes sense. Yeah. Which is kind of hard and there's no doubt that it, it's, it's a challenge to do so. It takes a, a level of maturity of the person to be able to sit with that. Be able to notice, you know, that somatic response in themselves when the client says something that's, that bothers them. And, and it's like, why am I, what, what's going on for me right now? And then being able to pause yourself and breathe and, and take a moment to reflect on that and, and bring yourself back into presence. Because it happens all the time. It's the, it's literally a, a minute by minute process, I believe. Yeah. It's very hard for us to be neutral. Yeah, and, and I guess that what's coming up for me there then is, is just because we are coaches and we practice this, these skills, but also these capacities and this self-reflection, we are not perfect. We don't suddenly become self-aware and able to witness ourselves. Because our own humanity will sometimes just dive in and take over. So it's something, as you are, you know, saying there minute by minute, I mean, that's a, it's, it's hence the need for such depth of presence perhaps. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. We do. We need to be. Aware of what's going on. And of course we get this, you know, our, there's more wisdom in our body than there is in our head most of the time. And so we need to be aware of what somatically is going on for us that may be occurring as a result of a. An unconscious belief or an assumption or a bias or something from our contextual influences kind of map that is getting in the way or potentially will get in the way of us being really present for the client. So yeah, it's that moment by moment. Practicing and being there with it and, and noticing and paying attention to what's going on in your bo in your body so that you can then go, oof, okay, there's something going on here. What's, what do I need to do in this moment? And it might be just to, you know, take a deep breath and bring yourself back to presence. Yeah. Yeah. It's a slight, slight tangential question here, but what I've been just noticing as you were talking there is. Not necessarily that to work in this way has to be hard work. I don't want to to frame it in that way, but it is deep, it is focused. And I'm, I'm just thinking alongside that with the popularization of coaching as a, as a way of working and how many coaches perhaps will be coaching for organizations who. You know, maybe having six, eight clients a day. I mean, I was just wondering, what is your thinking about one's capacity to be in that space multiple times throughout the day? Is that, do you, do you feel that's feasible or would that feel inaccessible? I mean, what, what, what does that, what do you think about that? Well, personally over the last few years I was working for a large financial institution and two or three days a week I was coaching six clients a day with 15 minutes in between. And I felt very energized at the end of every coaching session. But I, and I do think it requires a level of maturity. So that you are able to sit with that client in and be present for that client in a way that doesn't drain you, so that when you finish the coaching session, in fact you are feeling more energized than you are not. So I think it is possible, but I don't think it's possible for the beginner coaches. And part of that comes back to that doing and being of coaching. When you do coaching, it's quite. Labor intensive. It's hard work. And you know, I often say to my student coaches how, you know, how did that feel at by, at the end of that session? How do you feel from an energy perspective? And they go, oh, I'm worn out, I'm exhausted. And they go, well that's 'cause you are doing coaching instead of being a coach. So they were trying to, you know, list, you know, tick all the competencies or tick all the markers or whatever and, and exhausted themselves from, from that perspective. So it's, it's really. Important to be able to be present without giving your whole self over to the point where you become drained from it. And, and it's interesting because we, and I dunno if you're aware of this, but there's a I can't remember who it came from. I'll find out and let you know. We talk about the three Cs for coaching and mentoring, and that's competency, capability, and capacity. Hmm. And, and so, and just to, to put it into a really easy metaphor, which I think is quite useful, and that is that competency is that. It's like driving the car, you know, you're able to get in the car and particularly if you're driving a manual car, you know, or a stick shift of manual and you've gotta change gears and you've got a foot on the accelerator and a foot on the clutch and, and, and so you are competent in that. You can do that. You can pass your driver's test and you can do it. You've got your license. But at that point, you don't necessarily have capability because it's about, so what do you, how do you need to be your best self to be able to drive from point A to point B? What do you need to do to prepare yourself? How do you get there? How do you drive under certain conditions? All that kind of, that kind of stuff. And then the last piece is around capacity. And this is, it's, it's that emotional intelligence and self-awareness to. To be able to navigate to be able to stay present, to manage complexity to be able to plan for that, for the drive to say, yeah, I had a really late night last night and I think I'm gonna be a bit tired, so I don't think I'll do the full eight hour drive today. I might just drive halfway and stop overnight. Now that, that is more about capacity, knowing what your capacity is. Hmm. That requires reflective practice, it requires mindfulness. And from where I sit, it, it requires supervision. Yes. So, so it's about supporting our, our coaches to be, to be the best that they can be in a space where they can, they have the competence, they have the capability, and we're also supporting them in understanding their capacity. Manage managing themselves in that space. And I'm really seeing an alignment, Tracy, with what you are saying there, particularly about the capacity with mastery. Mm. You, you know, that self-reflection and I'm thinking about, you know, maybe, I don't know, but maybe some people are listening to this thinking, wow, this sounds wonderful, but how do I do it? You know, how, how do I. Develop that capacity and that maturity. And of course that's going to be unique for each of us. And I've also heard you mention things like reflective practice, mindfulness, supervision, which of course we know are great practices for this purpose. What, what else have you found useful for you over, over the course of your coaching life? What's helped you become more self-aware and move into that space of greater capacity? It's a few things. So one, so one is, more education, so continuing to learn. So studying adult development learning immunity to change with Bob Keegan. That whole subject object piece, working with Jennifer Garvey Berger, doing a whole lot of training in that space has been really helpful for my own capacity for me to develop my own awareness about how, you know, how am I being subject to the, to these things. And then there's. Coaching competence, you know, just continuing to record myself occasionally, get some mentoring, have my own coach, have supervision. I mean, I have monthly supervision and I group supervision and I have regular one-on-one supervision as well. So being in that space where I'm. Being supported to develop my own capacity to find out what my limiting beliefs might be or where I might be getting stuck or where the things that are happening for the client might be triggering in me. You know, is it transference, counter transference, parallel process, whatever. Being able to understand those things and then develop those. Myself has been incredibly helpful. There's no doubt that supervision is a key piece, I think, to a coach's development. And then there's some really basic things like, are you getting enough sleep? Are you exercising? Are you eating well? Are you looking after yourself? Are you looking after your own body? Because you know, as we say, you've only got your, your body is the only place you get to live. So you better look after it. Yeah. So it's really important that you look after yourself because if you have too many late nights or drink too much alcohol, or don't eat well or don't exercise, the chances are that you are not going to be at your best for your clients, let alone yourself. So I think that that really helps build capacity as well. And then just like I say, continuing to learn, going to events, going to other workshops, hearing other people speak with different ideas different trainings. And then also speaking myself. You know, I'm, I'm speaking about coaching maturity later this month for an ICF Australasian chapter webinar. And just being able to do that means that I've gotta go back into my own notes and do a bit more study and a bit more, bring myself back up to speed with some things I may have let go a little. And that helps build my own capacity as well. Yeah, so yeah, there's a few, there's a few things in there. There's a lot of, a lot of lovely things in there, and it, it's really striking me that this sense of immersion, rather than just learning a skill and then going off and doing it, it's about an immersion. I guess the word craft then comes up for me of how do, how do I nurture my, my craft as it were? And I noticed myself thinking of comp, comp competency too. Not to go too deeply off into competencies, but you know, I remember when the, the, the model came through with that new addition, that new competency. I was very excited and I'm a bit nerdy about competencies, fact, you are too. But I just loved that and I thought, wow, you know, we are actually really pointing now to. The practitioner as a, as an instrument self, as instrument, and, and that focus on our own wellbeing. So that we're, I guess, role modeling as well and embodying. What we are trying to support our clients to, to do as well. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And, and I think, you know, things like, you know, there've been times in my life where I've, I've gone, you know, I actually, I think I need to go to therapy and I've gone to therapy or, you know, I need to go to supervision and I've gone to supervision, or I've, you know, I need, I need to talk to my mentor about this. So I need, I actually just, I think I might just have some coaching for a bit. So it's about putting yourself in that space of being the learner again, not the knower. And, and, and as the, as the master coach, we're not the knower because we don't know, we, we can never know everything at all. We have to sit in that space of being the learner constantly. And that, that allows us to sit more comfortably. I think if you had that distinction in your mind, being the learner, not the knower it's what what can, not only can you learn about your client, but what can you learn about yourself Absolutely. Gonna support your development. So I heard you there, you know, just reference, maybe we want to go into some therapy. And you also mentioned earlier about having a coach and I, I'm just noticing how many coaches I come across who aren't being coached anymore. And I sort of think, gosh, what? You know, wow. Why, why? Because we are now coaches, do we think we don't? Need or benefit from coaching as well. And I often surprise people by saying, I've got three different coaches because I love being coached and I've got three wonderful coaches that I, I connect with for different purposes, for different kinds of things that I want to bring based on how I want to work. And I can't imagine, you know, that's a huge part of my personal growth. I can't even imagine not doing that. Yeah, absolutely. What, what did they say? What's that phrase? That saying physician heal thyself, you know? Yeah. We've gotta, yeah. We've gotta work with our own, with our, with ourselves first, before we can work with anybody else. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. So, what, what else? I'm, I'm mindful we're. Possibly coming to the, to the, the last part of our, of our conversation that's flown by actually, I just realized the time. What else is, is sitting there for you around this topic that would be useful to share? Hmm. I suppose in a nutshell, really it's about just. Stepping back and being the observer of your own life for a moment to see where are you? Like take stock, do it. Sit back and take a look at you. And where are you now and where do you wanna get to? Keeping in mind that the destination is not the finish line, and what support do you need to get there? This is not a solo journey. So being able to sit comfortably in that space of not knowing. And in fact, as I I say to my students, if you're not squirming, you're not learning. And so there's gonna be like, strap in with this ride that you're gonna go on is gonna be quite squirmy because there'll be a lot of learning involved and that's fantastic. And look at that as a real positive that you can actually, yeah. There's so much to learn and it's a never ending. And I mean, love of learning is one of my strengths. Funny about that. And so consequently, I'm, I love being in that space and yeah, sure, sometimes it does feel a bit squirmy and that, and I look at that and go, yeah, but that's actually quite good for it to be like that because that means I'm, I'm in that, I'm in that vulnerable space where I'm uncomfortable and that's really great. So yeah. It's fascinating, isn't it? How things like confusion, uncertainty, discomfort, we want to get away from them so quickly. Mm. And yet sitting with it, being with it and reframing it from something that's not pleasant to something that's an opportunity. It's so powerful, isn't it? It's so powerful. I can remember one of the courses that I went on back in 2005 that started to get me on a pathway to being a coach. Someone in the audience said, oh, I'm just really confused. And the tutor leapt up and said, shouted, Eureka, he's confused. And everyone was sort of, what? That's really, that's really odd. And then he said, he said, this is amazing. He said, confusion is the precursor to enlightenment. And, and it was just such an in, I mean, I don't know about enlightenment necessarily, but Yeah. Yeah, definitely awareness. Yeah, absolutely. And insight. So you know, let's hang out there and be And be there. Yeah, yeah. Sit more comfortably with the uncomfortable. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And be prepared to stretch and grow and learn. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's good. It's a good space. It is, it is. Gosh. Well, I'm feeling really philosophical now. I think I need to just go off and reflect for a little while. You are, you are revoking so many wonderful thoughts for me. Thank you so much. I've really, really enjoyed our conversation. I. Thank you and thank you Tracy for inviting me. It's been a pleasure and it, I do love to talk about this stuff. You may have noticed and it's really, it's great that you're able to bring this to a wide audience and I really appreciate that because everybody that we can touch with this question around what is mastery and how do people develop that? Coaching maturity that is gonna support them. Everyone that hears that and hopefully starts to adopt some of these practices and learnings makes for an even better coaching experience for our clients, which helps overall the transformation of the people that we're working with. Absolutely. And that. That's, that's our role, isn't it? You know? That's what we're, what we are trying to, to bring to the world. So. Well, thank you so much and well maybe we'll have a conversation about golf coaching at some point. Certainly. Thank you. It's been a pleasure. Thank you. Thank you. You have been listening to Coaching in Conversation. By Tracy Sinclair, a podcast aimed at exploring how coaching is a vehicle for human development in today's and tomorrow's world. You can learn more about coach training and development@tracysinclair.com and follow us on social media. If you enjoyed this podcast, please leave a rating and review and also share it with your networks to help us expand our reach. Thank you for listening. I'll see you next time.