Hello, my name is Tracy Sinclair and welcome to Coaching in Conversation, the Mastery Series. This series of conversations explore. As the concept of mastery in coaching, and I have the great pleasure of talking with several ICF master certified coaches from around the world to understand what mastery really means to them, both as coaching practitioners and also as human beings. We explore many different perspectives and nuances of this topic, and I hope it is of use and interest. To you as you continue to navigate your own pathway of development. Hello everyone. It's Tracy Sinclair here with another episode of Coaching in Conversation. This episode is part of our Mastery series, and I have the great pleasure of talking with Dr. Elizabeth Crosse, who is a master certified coach with the ICF. She's also a supervisor and a research practitioner with a very deep interest into how coaches develop. Their expertise over time. Her own practice is shaped but with, with a very wide ranging background, including leading, learning and development in large organizations. Introducing internal coaching strategies in organizations as well as running her own coaching business for many years, having navigated dyslexia and dyspraxia herself throughout her life. Elizabeth brings. A lot of compassion and curity and clarity to her work. She has a wonderful capacity to create reflective spaces that encourage honest conversations, critical thinking, and the development of practical, pragmatic wisdom, supporting coaches to find their own path on their own growth with confidence and integrity. I really hope you enjoy this conversation, and this episode is called Deeply Superficial. Enjoy. Well, Elizabeth, it's so lovely to have the opportunity to catch up again with you about some of the really interesting aspects of your work. That is focused on the development of coaches, and I think this fits so beautifully into the Mastery series of podcasts that I've been having the pleasure of doing with people because one of the key things that comes out very, very often is that mastery isn't just a point of arrival. It's an ongoing thing and an ongoing journey. And part of that journey is our ongoing growth and development. So that gives us the perfect segue really, for you to share a little bit more about, about your views, your, your discoveries, your perspectives on navigating our development as we grow as coaches. Thank you so much for that lovely invitation and it's lovely to be with you and also to everybody that's gonna be listening today. And I think I, I always say this, that. All that I offer is just one way of looking at things to, you know, to provoke your own questioning and thoughts. So what I hope for people listening to this is it just starts to get you thinking a little bit more. It's not about necessarily going, this is right or this is wrong. And I'm already starting with a smile because we're about this together, we said. This idea of is our approach to coach development deeply superficial. And I, because that was one of the challenges I said, you know, are we just deeply superficial and I think this. Came about for me because I'm so aware at the moment that we have so many choices, so many opportunities. You know, so many people are marketing courses, webinars, retreats, instruments. You know, you only have, most of us sometimes belong to more than one professional body. There's so much coming in and how do we start to navigate all of this and perhaps. Make a little bit more of an informed choice because I think way back, actually, when I started to research this area, one of the things that really made this so interesting and relevant for me was the fact that I'm off from going, so what do I do next? And coaches, I supervise, I mentor my colleagues. People that, you know, we've, we've tutored on courses are asking exactly the same thing. And also I am sure I am not alone in making some incredible choices and really doing some wonderful things, but also investing a lot of money in some options. And I think, do you know what? I'd been better off going on a good holiday. So indeed he's a little bit of, this is not just a feeling, again, there's sort of been even about a decade ago, start to recognize that approach is development is quite often ad hoc at the best. So that's a little bit where, you know, sort of some of, perhaps our conversation is gonna go this afternoon. You know, how, how, how do we make more informed choices? Well first of all as you know, I really love this term of deeply superficial. It's so beautifully paradoxical. And it fits this topic perfectly. And the two things that are really striking me already, Elizabeth, is, is one, are we being proactive or reactive almost to our learning choices because of the plethora of. Things that are thrown at us almost you know, and are available. And also the other one is, is are, are we being really intentional, therefore when we make those choices? So there's two really already, just two really, really important themes there. So where, where would you like us to start with this? I think, as I say, it's, I'm wondering if perhaps a good place to start is this idea of being more intentional because I'm also aware that I'm sitting here feeling a little bit of a hypocrite because I do all of this work and. I do stop. And for me it's like the beginning of the year, there's something about beginning of the year, what's next? I do sit and think about, you know, what, what next for my development, what's important, and start to scope it out. And then just recently I've been going through this sort of, you know, the sort of reaccreditation process and then sort of scrambling around is have I got enough of this? Have I got enough of that? And realize in some ways I've completely lost that. Intention and it's this reminder to come back to that and again, I think. It's just about noticing it, isn't it? It's not about some rights or wrong, and some of us are very structured and like to have a plan, and some of us like to be more intuitive and ad hoc, but I think what I am starting to realize is that if we are making a more informed choice, we can better put the client at the center. Because one of the things I think that. Came outta one of the pieces of research when I was asking coaches about, you know, what was most important, almost unanimously it was something about, you know, how how can I better benefit my clients? So I think we've always almost got that as a guiding principle. And I think it's a, perhaps reminding ourself about. When we are making these decisions, coming back to thinking about what are our guiding principles? And one of the things that I did was I interviewed nine very experienced coaches on their developmental journeys because I was curious about, was there anything that we could learn from. Their decision making approaches that might help us, and I think. What came outta that was probably the first thing is this reflection on what is my purpose? And this is quite specific. It's almost what's my purpose in my development for the next six or nine months.'cause I think we also have a much wider purpose as a coach of what we are trying to do. Because our purpose as I look forward for the next six, nine next year, I think does shift and change. For instance I've just been sort of chatting to a friend who's thinking of going for MCC. So this year their purpose has suddenly become very focused on perhaps working with a mentor, thinking about what do they need to do to be able to demonstrate. Competency at that level. And that's gonna be very specific. And then once they've achieved their MCC, they're probably going to sort of recalibrate and think about what next. So I think realizing developmental purpose is contextual and it, or shift and change is perhaps the first place to start in this, you know, what's going to be my intention? So, I dunno, just sharing that, Tracy, where that's starting to take your thinking. Yeah. I, I really like that Elizabeth, because where it did immediately take my thinking was the distinction. Therefore, between engaging in something that's going to be developmental for me on the basis of my purpose, my developmental purpose at that time. Versus just acquiring more knowledge about something and that, that for me is, is part of the danger is because there are so many, I mean, not, not learning fads, I don't mean they're fads because all of these things are interesting and useful and, and valuable of course, but there will be waves won't there of everyone's going on this kind of training. Everyone's going on that kind of training. And it's very easy, isn't it, to get carried away with the, the pull to, to think, oh, I better do some of that, then I better train in this. I better get skilled in that when actually it, that may just end up with me acquiring a bit more knowledge, but it doesn't necessarily meet my developmental purpose or my developmental needs. Absolutely. And I think, you know, this is something else. You know, coming into this whole idea of choice and being deeply superficial, there's also that saying, you know, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. And that idea, I mean, I think both you and I, I, you know, we notice these trends like a few years ago I think it was sort no acceptance, and then it was trauma informed coaching. And now there's a lot about sort of ai and we go on these courses and sometimes you might even do a sort of a three month course. I mean, a lot at the moment I think is around you know, coaching and being a coach that supports neurodivergent individuals. And for me, you know, even if you have done something fairly in depth, like a three months, it's probably not. Sufficiently in depth to really, really be working in an area that requires a lot of skills and knowledge. And at the the very worst extreme my, I was sitting, I was over listening to a conversation in there. Hairdresser and the client was saying to the hairdressers to say, I went on this. I, you know, he's saying, you know, I'm, I'm A DHD and, and I went on this really good course last weekend and now I'm setting up as an a DH coach. And it's scary. It's scary and that's, that's the very worst extreme. But I think also there's this part about having more knowledge is really useful. But it's also recognizing the difference of being informed and having what we need if we are really going to sort of specialize or get in deep into an area. And also I think there's, there's times, and this comes to the, so the second part of once we thought about our purpose is thinking about our developmental focus. Because there are times in our development when we do want to focus on more knowledge and more skills and more information, and that is really relevant and that is part of working for me with, you know, professional, personal, and ethical integrity. And then there's also times when perhaps we want to focus more about on how we are being, and they're not necessarily mutually exclusive. But again, it's thinking about whereabouts do I wanna focus my time, my effort my money right now. With that. So we're probably sort of weaving around a little bit and I dunno sort of where my thoughts are taking you. Well, I was just thinking as you were sharing that, I was just thinking, I don't know, take the example that you said earlier about the coach that's now considering going for their MCC. If I think about, if I'm, if I'm in that position and I'm reflecting on that and I think about what's my developmental purpose, therefore, and my developmental need it, it may or may not actually be a training program at all that I need to go on. Perhaps it's something that is more some personal work that I need to do with my own coach or my supervisor around. Growing my capacity for challenge or my capacity to handle emotion or uncertainty or whatever it might be, which aren't, aren't necessarily courses. So that's, that's the other, it might sound obvious in a way, but I think what so often we think about development as ticking off the boxes of this course and that certificate and that qualification when actually that's only a small part of development. Absolutely, and I think, I know it's sort Tatiana Rova who uses the term self as instrument of practice and it's like how we are being, and I think particularly working at the MCC level where it, yes, you are having to demonstr a certain level of competency, but it's much, much more about how we are being. As a coach and if perhaps one of the areas I'm. So recognizing that maybe it's something about, you know, my presence of how I've been with a client. That's not something you can go on a course and learn how to be present, but it is something where it might be investing in something that's enhancing your own self-awareness. Whether it's work with a supervisor or it might be some group work. And I think one of the things that I found fascinating is, all of the very experienced coaches I interviewed when I was exploring how they made the developmental decisions, all of them at some stage in their journey as a professional coach had engaged in their deep therapeutic work. You know, they'd recognize this importance of self work. And, and I think. That's where we can't separate out. It's just not about having knowledge and skills. It's so much about who we are particularly, and I think it's ongoing because again, we've talked a lot about, we don't suddenly arrive at mastery. You know, it, it's, it's always ongoing. You know, I, I liken it which sometimes I find so helpful is this, this thing, you know, like you can sort of tr nowadays it's like for a half marathon, but you can sort of train for a race and you do it. You don't stop because you have to continue having a fitness program if you want to stay fit and, and healthy. And I think it's exactly the same for our development. It's almost what do I need to be doing right now to be, to be fit for purpose. Yeah. I just so love this idea that you are bringing around. It's not so much about what we are doing, it's how we are being. This is something that's, that I really feel strongly about and it's, it's such a theme that's been emerging and. To your point about Tatiana saying of we are an instrument self as instrument of the work. So I'm thinking about, and please challenge or, or say more about this if you want to, Elizabeth, but this balance between competency and capacity of, we can so often, you know, focus on the competency that we need to develop. Versus our capacity to, to grow, be present, et cetera. So would would you like to say a little bit more about that? Let try and be concise.'cause I'm going to open a can of worms and it could lead to probably a year's worth of conversation. What it was triggering for me was the way I define the difference between. Capability and capacity. For me, our capability is our knowledge skills, our, our competencies and quite often that I think is what I would call more of a professional. Development. And then there's this idea of how we develop our capacity. And I think this is our capacity for managing complexity, managing ambiguity. And you know, I've, I've likened it to the difference of putting more acts on the phone to doing a systems upgrade, which, you know, I've, I've borrowed that metaphor from somebody else, but as we. Enhance our capacity. I think we start to shift in the way we make sense and meaning, and it, it enables us to engage in a very different way. And. Sometimes I think it's described in this idea of like horizontal or vertical development where you know, when we're doing competency and skills, it's horizontal. When we are building capacity, it's vertical. I actually don't see it like that. I think development is just development and quite often they link in. Because I might go on a more of a, one of those traditional more knowledge training courses and I, something happens there and it really makes me start to question perhaps how I'm making sense of things starting to challenge my existing assumptions and values, which is that when I starting to sort of start to build my capacity. And then equally as my capacity builds, I start to use my knowledge and skills in different ways. So, you know, I see these much more as of it's of integrated and dynamic and cyclical. But just sort of lightly holding these things in mind as we are working. And I think, again, this comes back to the purpose because there are some points where we do perhaps reach a point where we do need to have a. Develop more our capability because for instance, I'm, I'm just using this as an example 'cause it's a hot topic at the moment that, you know, I, I do realize that I want to work more in this whole idea of supporting Neurodivergence, but I know to do that I really, really need to understand, you know, what I'm doing, what the current research is, what the arguments are in the field. So, you know, yes, I might go and. Sort of, you know, do you know, I know somebody at the moment this is doing a master's in that area because she then wants to come back and have this woven into her coaching offer. Yeah. But at the same time, that doesn't mean that we suddenly stop our, our self work and this. Self work for how we are managing and building a capacity. I think that's where we are really creative. And I, when I do a webinar, one of the questions I always ask people is just, you know, what did you do last year that had the most impact on your coaching practice? And one of the answers I loved, and one of us was doing pattern cutting, you know, doing dress making. I thought, I said, tell me more. And it was the whole idea of like going back, being a complete novice, not knowing what they were doing, having to be patient, you know, having to get feedback and what she was learning about herself, you know, and unfortunately can't submit that in as CCE hours for resource development. It, you know, those sorts of things. And I think just knowing that and embracing that, that, you know, a lot of what we do, it's not necessarily gonna tick boxes, but it's what our souls need. Oh wow. I mean, that's just amazing because, you know, we can get so focused, can't we, on ticking the boxes for credentials, for renewals. And of course, yes, that is an important part of our professional development and to show that we, you know, we've achieved certain standards and quality, et cetera. I couldn't agree more about this idea of our development is broader than our coaching. And I love, you know, I love the idea of that learning from pattern cutting. And for me at the moment, it's creative writing. And yoga, you know, I've learned so much about myself in. In practicing yoga myself and also training as a yoga teacher, even though I don't teach because the learning opportunity is huge. So I, I love this idea as well of in as of inviting people, not just to look at what's the next coaching book that they should buy, or the next coaching related course they should go on, but what are some of these other experiences and skills that we could develop? That's, that inform us because then as an instrument of that work, it's going to infuse, isn't it? The practice that we do with our clients. I think, you know, as you are talking, I know one of the things that we were thinking about as we were chatting about this podcast today is almost a little bit of pragmatic as like, so, you know, what might we be doing as we're thinking about a more, taking a more informed approach to our. And I think part of it and one of the things, in, in the paper. It's gonna be coming out in February. There's something I've called like the developmental mindset inventory, which sounds a bit of a mouthful. It's ever as simple. It's basically this very familiar sort of, you know, the, the wheel, but just asking you to look at you know, what your purpose is aspects of. Developmental focus and something I just want to touch on very quickly'cause I think it is relevant. What are our practical requirements? Because the other thing we don't often acknowledge in all of this is that you know, often we are running our own business. So we've got limited budgets, we've got limited time. Sometimes we are doing something because a client requires it. I need to be I can't think of what word is perhaps, but accredited to use a particular psychometric, for instance, 'cause the clients did it. So I need to go and do that. It might just be as well about, you know, what, what time have I got this year? All of those things. And I don't think there's enough recognition and talking about. Once we've done all the lovely stuff, we have to come back and be really practical. And I've had some lovely conversations with coaches that just say, I'd love to do it, but I haven't got the head space. Yeah. To commit my time and energy to do that right now. Yeah. And that's okay. You know, recognizing what these things are. Basically, it's sort of a lot of questions, just really as something to help you reflect. And I think in this you know, perhaps we don't often, you know, most of us, I, I think probably have colleagues we have conversations with. We might have a thinking partner, we might have a supervisor, we might have an own coach. But maybe using some of those spaces for chats about, this is what I'm thinking. Offer me some challenges. Help me, you know, help me think a little bit more about I'm going to use the word strategy 'cause I love strategy, you know, so creating a little bit of a strategy. And I think for me it's about balancing, having something that can provide a guiding structure. Because I'm much more like the idea of sort, setting an intent rather than having a hard and fast goal because life happens and we need to be flexible. But having something that is going to provide some sort of guiding structure that I can sort of check in and, and look at, you know, where am I going? So when something, when that email then pops in to go, here's this course, you know, sign up, dah, dah, dah. You can actually go right before I press go, let, just stop. Let just remind myself. Lemme just think about how is this aligning or not with what I said I wanted to be doing. Gosh. I mean, that's, it just, it just feels, as I'm hearing you, it seems to make such common sense, and yet I know I've not always followed that kind of philosophy. And it's, it really strikes me as well, what you were saying about it having to fit into your life. And I know that, and I, I know for myself and I know for other coaches that I work with, how we can sometimes feel under such pressure to know more. To achieve more certifications when actually, you know, how can, how can deep learning happen in a, in a pressure, you know, in a pressure tank when life is, is already taking up a lot of your space. And we're trying to shoehorn in yet another three months modular course or something like that. I mean, it's, it, it's tempting, isn't it? But it's how productive ultimately is that going to be? And I think, you know, as, as we're talking, and I'm sort of mindful of our space today, you know, as, as we are thinking about this, you know, one of the things that's really striking me is that how important to learn to sort of reflect on our experience, and almost now we are taking it to another level, is actually to reflect on. How I'm learning, not just what I'm learning as well. And, and almost like what am I learning from, from actually that process in itself. And where do I perhaps need to be a little bit more courageous? And one of the things that really struck me, 'cause I had a, it was a, a different piece to the sort of developmental journeys, but I was exploring views on. Developmental priorities, and one of the questions I had was not doing any development, and everybody in my pilot group said, no, Elizabeth, you can't have that question in. And I wanted it in, so I stuck it in. And everybody rated that as the most unimportant thing? No, they weren't interested. But in some ways, actually there is this point about sometimes it's actually okay just to stop. It's just like, you know, when we've had a great meal, we need time to digest it. Yeah. And it might feel like I say, right, I'm not gonna commit to anything this year. It doesn't actually mean I'm not developing. It means, you know, I'm giving myself time to integrate. And digest? I haven't stuck to it a hundred percent, but one of the challenges I gave myself this year was not to sign up for another course, and if I do any webinars, I would be there and I would be present, but I wouldn't make notes. But what I wanted to do was to create time to. Read some of those books that have been sitting on my bookshelf to actually read, to reflect on those books, to make notes, to get back to mind mapping and create the space. And that's what I wanted to be doing, just as a, just, you know, sort of feel for you. So from the outside it might look like I'm not doing much. And you know, it's another thought. I think again, it comes back to the being, doesn't it? It does. Gosh, I, I mean that really, really resonates with me, Elizabeth, and I'm thinking as well as your digesting after a lovely meal metaphor, what immediately came to my mind was crop rotation and how we have to leave a field fellow to, to enrich it, for it to be sewn and, and provide a harvest again. So there is a cycle to this, isn't there? Our development. Is cyclical and it's going to take different shapes and forms based on all of the, the different things that you've shared. So, well, I'm, I am mindful of, of our time as ever. It just flies by. I've so enjoyed thinking about this. It's already, I, I'm really sit already thinking I need to write my development strategy now for 2026, but if any of our listeners are interested in. Finding out more about your work that's going to come out in February, finding out more about your developmental mindset inventory, where could they contact you? What, what would you like people to do to find out more? We, we can put my email on the. The notes send me an email. It's literally just one page thing to get you thinking, you know, I'm quite happy I, I'll send that off to you. And then on my LinkedIn, when the article's published in February, I'll do a LinkedIn post to say you know, the article with more of the details as being published then as well. Marvelous. Well, we will look out for that. Most certainly. And who knows when it comes out. Maybe you and I should catch up and have another conversation based about, based on some of the things coming out of that as well. So, but for now, thank you so much, Elizabeth. Thank you. And thank you to everybody that has been listening today and I think just a, a closing reflection. I think we are really privileged to be in this world of having so many choices. And actually the invitation is that we are just more thoughtful when we are making those choices. Mm, yes. Yes. Wonderful. So we have deep development, not superficial development. That's lovely. What a lovely note to end on. Thank you, Elizabeth. Thank you. You have been listening to Coaching in Conversation, the Mastery Series, a podcast that takes a look at mastery and coaching, what it is, what that means, how do we nurture or cultivate it, and many other interesting questions. You can hear more about coaching, education and development. At Tracy sinclair.com and follow us on social media. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a rating and a review and also share it with your network to help us expand our reach. Thank you for listening and see you next time.