Hello, my name is Tracy Sinclair. Welcome to Coaching and Conversation. Coaching in Conversation is a chance to discuss and explore, not just how we can keep developing. And ensuring as coach practitioners, but also to consider how coaching is evolving and its future potential and place as a powerful vehicle for human development in today's and tomorrow's world. I'll be sharing some of my own thoughts on these topics. And we will also hear from some great guests from around the world who bring their unique experience and perspectives. Hello everyone. It's Tracy here with another episode of Poaching in Conversation. This time I am having a lovely conversation with a coach called Julie Langford. And Julie has a great deal of experience in financial services on the corporate world around offering leadership development consultancy. Being a trusted advisor to leaders coaching on a one-to-one and team basis within the organization. She was a very core part of her organization's internal coaching team, very much focusing on organizational excellence, primarily in the executive leadership engagement and development space. And in the work that Julie has done, she has come across many. Patterns and trends with work that surfaces in coaching from her internal clients. And today she wants to talk with me about one of her favorite topics, which is that of imposter syndrome. And of course, imposter syndrome is something that doesn't only affect leaders, but can also affect us as coaches as well. So today's episode is called I'm an Imposter. I do hope you enjoy. Well, Julie, thank you so much for agreeing to come and have a conversation with me. Before we introduce our topic for today in coaching with conversation, what what would you like to tell us about yourself? First of all. Oh, thank you Tracy. Well, it, it is lovely to be able to come and have a chat with you today. So I have been involved in coaching for quite a number of years, quite a lot in a corporate organization and coaching clients within the organization as an employee, very senior leaders, middle management, and a lot in leadership development. And, and laterally have been working on my own as an executive coach. And I guess what I'm really. Excited and quite passionate about is seeing people grow and develop regardless of what the work context might be. There's some real wonderful growth in coaching and that's kind of what brings me to it, I guess, every day and what's kept me in it, I guess. Hmm, hmm. I'm just thinking about how that speaks to my heart as well. Around coaching is about growing, not just about. Three step action plans. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Ultimately, it's the action is in service of growth. So yeah, I think we're on the same page there. Mm. Well, I know that the topic that you would love to explore today is something that I know you have come across in the work that you've done, and I also know that it's something that coaches experience as well sometimes. So it affect, can affect anyone. And that is the topic of imposter syndrome. So maybe tell us a little bit about what. What is important about bringing imposter syndrome into the conversation? Hmm. Yeah. Thank you. And I, I sometimes even struggle with the label actually. Even my idea of it being a syndrome,'cause I think it's a lot more normal and common than we perhaps think it is at times for me. It's sometimes. Is the thing that doesn't initially present itself. So a lot of people will come to coaching to say, I'd like to build my confidence. I'd like to feel a bit more selfish at work. I'd like to be able to be more able to push myself forward. And they might use a phrase like, oh, I think I've just, I think I've got imposter syndrome. And it, it gets used a lot. And as a bit of a label that almost as if it's a. It's a given. I've got this, I'm gonna have to try and deal with it. How can I, how can I do something about it? And within coaching, I see it brought in a lot and actually. The coaching experience itself allows you to unlock some of the stuckness around that because we know that imposter syndrome when it's given a little bit of air and you can talk about what's going on for you, and you can try and unpack what you're thinking and feeling, you really can start to shift some of those thoughts and perhaps some of those feelings that are not helpful to you. And I'm just aware, I'm seeing this come up more and more in the coaching that I do. It's interesting 'cause as you were describing that I was having this sense of when, when one feels one has imposter syndrome, it's like this fixed state, almost like a Yeah. That's who I am. I have imposter syndrome and it's like this, you know, fixed part of your identity. And yet when you were then describing about working with it, it's, it's about unpacking, unpicking, loosening the thoughts. So I was just struck by that difference of moving something from the, you know, we might think is cemented into us. Yeah, yeah. To something that actually is workable. Yeah. And I think there's. There's a kind of an element to the, the phraseology around imposter syndrome where people say, oh, I've, I've had it for years. It's almost like it's this thing that's kind of attached themselves to them and they can't quite shake it off. And I even wondered if it starts to creep in identity levels when we start talking about some of the logical levels work and therefore. It is hard to undo something that becomes attached on your own. It is quite hard to get rid of imposter syndrome on your own. And that's why in a coaching setting, I think it, it becomes a really, a really useful tool to start to sort of nudge or maybe start to shift some space around it. And another thing to say is that, you know, as coaches. When we, I notice when somebody talks about imposter syndrome, in order for me to understand imposter syndrome, I think about it from my own perspective. And I can have moments as a coach thinking, you know, I'm not doing the right thing. I'm maybe not doing this as well as I'd like it to be. Am I really helping the client? So it's, it can creep up on you quite quickly. Which means it can take a bit of a hold. Yeah, I can. I can, as you're talking and I'm listening to you, I can sort of really sense that and. How we might very quickly make the leap from, I don't know, I feel a little bit out of my depth today with this conversation to, yeah, I've got imposter syndrome, or Yeah, I feel a bit confused because I'm not quite sure where my client is going. Mm-hmm. Or I must have imposter syndrome. I can imagine we can jump to that label. Like you say very, very quickly from something that could just be very situational and isolated perhaps. Yeah, absolutely. And I think one of the things that I think is really fascinating is when you start to sort of unpack the thoughts around imposter syndrome, the thoughts around confidence being linked to this, and you start to. Just get a little bit under the surface, then that's where the richness is because it's almost like the imposter syndrome label keeps a cap on staff. It's like, well, there's no point in even me looking at this because that's imposter syndrome. I know I've got it. I can't sort of shake it. But I think coaching allows you to use a slightly different lens and filter to say, well, well, let's look at this then. What might be going on. And I, I'm a great believer that there's a, there is an element of positive intention around the things that we do, what we think about how our bodies operate. It might be a bit overplayed, it might not be as helpful as it once was, but quite often I noticed with clients that this keeping themselves a little bit in check, not wanting to be too grandiose, you know, not having too big an ego. Actually can serve you really well there. There's a gift to some of that. It, it's about when it starts to hold them back from maybe taking that promotion or putting themselves forward. And, and that's where it, it can deserve a little bit of attention to see, well, what, what might be going on? And, and where's your appetite to look at that? Is that something that you want to do? Yeah, so what's coming up for me there is, there are many facets to it, and as you were just describing there, there could be some qualities, therefore, that we. Are connecting with imposter syndrome that are actually useful qualities like humility or you know, whatever, whatever it might be, respect or something that get bundled up into something that is negative. So I've, I've kind of got the thing of baby and bath water in my mind. Yeah, absolutely. You know that it needs unpacking to know actually what are the bits of this that are the issue. Rather than just bundle it all up in this label. Yeah. And, and one of the things that I'm, I'm really conscious of is that. I often work with people who have been very successful, who are quite senior in organization and then they're given the job they've always wanted. It might be, it might be part of C-Suite, it might be a really senior role, it might be a role with a lot of responsibility, and for some reason that that kind of moment in that role. Sort of shakes them a bit and they start to think, you know, am I really as good as people think I am? And is this really somebody gonna tap me on the shoulder? I've heard this so many times. Well, somebody tap me on the shoulder and say, well actually the game's up. You know, we know what you're able to do and not able to do. And I think. That is more about the, the finding yourself in an unusual situation. It's a place of newness. You are maybe not the most experienced person in the room. You might be a different gender, you might be a different race. You might be a working mom, and everybody else is a man. You might be the only man in the room. So there are moments where it's quite normal to feel a little. Outta place. Mm. And I think what coaching can do is it can help you see when that's at play as opposed to jumping back into the track of, oh, well this is imposter syndrome. I can do nothing about it. Because there are situational moments where you might not feel like you're one of the team. You might feel a little odd. And, and looking at that with the right lens I think is, is really helpful. Because actually it's not that you're not able to do it, it's just that it does feel quite strange and unusual at this moment. Mm-hmm. And that can be quite reassuring, actually, for clients. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it goes back, I think, to something you said earlier about normalizing it, you know, and, and what was really coming up for me as you were just talking. Almost how we misdiagnose ourselves. Yeah. You know, that we, we've, we, we jumped to this diagnosis, if you like, of, I, I have imposter syndrome. Yeah. And that's part of my living condition and identity. Yeah. When actually it could be a, a whole plethora of other things that are entirely normal and entirely workable. Yeah. And, and, and really the, you know, there, there is an element of reticence in a new role or in a new position of, of responsibility because you don't want to leap in necessarily and, and, and falter, you know, so there, there's, there's, there's kind of a. An element to all of this that is, that is helpful, but it's about when does it become a blocker. It was actually a really lovely situation that my daughter experienced with an organization that she was applying for. I think she was about 22 at the time, and at the very bottom of the advert, it didn't use imposter syndrome, but it said sometimes you might think you are not ready for a job you should apply for. If that's how you're feeling and you're not wanting to apply, please call us. Hmm. And she rang them up and she said, that's exactly how I felt. And they were, I thought it was just such a refreshing way to, to sort of deal with this area of stuckness. Yeah. And and they actually talked about imposter syndrome on the phone, and they just said, look, we just don't want anything to get in the way of somebody applying. And, and we know that can happen. Wow. And I just thought, how, how lovely. You know? Yeah. That's unusual. Exactly. You know, and, and I'm, I'm really conscious that I, you know, I haven't had lots of other stories to share. That's probably the only one I've got. But I think normalizing it, allowing people to see it for what it is, is really helpful. Because the other thing I notice with clients is that they feel it's only happening to them. Mm-hmm. Although they hear people talk about imposter syndrome, nobody's got it. Like they've got it. They, they really feel it. Mm-hmm. And so this giving a space to allow people to just talk about what that feels like perhaps allows them to start to see, oh, actually maybe I've heard other people talk about this or feel this way. And that is, that really does begin to shift something. You said just then about it's only me who feels this way. And then you were also just referencing a few minutes ago about even C-Suite people who have reached, you know, the pinnacle of their dream of dream jobs and feel that that imposter syndrome coming onto them. Yeah. And yet so often. We can think that the people you know, in a higher or senior position to us in organizations, they must have it all sorted because they've got those senior positions. So it's only me. Mm Or people at my level or something crazy like that. Who must. Feel like that, we often think that everyone else must have it sorted. Yeah. And, and I'm, I'm just the stupid one or something because I, because I haven't it's, yeah. Very interesting, isn't it? How we do that. It is, and, and I think this is why at certain levels, it, it can actually feel quite lonely. So some, some of the leaders I work with. Feel quite lonely at that level because they, they can't be quite open. And, and I was working with a, a client who had never had any training. In management or people leadership was in a quite a senior role and he, he valued the coaching as a way of being able just to talk about how he was, how he was dealing with stuff. So I think any conversation that allows people to open up about. Perhaps the stuff they're hiding away and imposter syndrome seems to be that, or they feel they can't shift it. It is a place where coaching can make a real difference if, if the setup is safe and comfortable and, and ethically right for that person, obviously. But it, it is been a, it is been an area that I've been fascinated in and I think it's a language. I don't want to say it's, it's turning into like a label, but sometimes it's used as a label or you just suffer from imposter syndrome and I think it can start to, that can do more damage than good because I think something that is limiting you or, or maybe feels it's holding you back or maybe isn't as the way you want it to be, just need some exploration. You know, no learning is, is born out of getting everything right or everything working out the way you wanted it to. It's all born out of the things that are a little bit more tricky. Mm-hmm. And interestingly, as I've worked with clients on imposter syndrome as a coach, you know, you hear yourself. Say quite useful things and you go, yeah, why don't I think about that sometimes That's quite helpful. So there, there's a lovely symbiotic process in coaching that with the, with the positive intent of there's something useful here. How might you like to use that in a really useful way that I think allows the client to still feel whole. They haven't had to lose something. Which is why I really like working in this space. So if we were to imagine that there are coaches listening to this, of which I hope there are many who are thinking, okay, yes, great, and get all of that, but what do I actually do? What could, what could be some of these ways of working? What I, what is your experience of, you know, different kinds of inquiries that are really helpful? What's less helpful? That kind of thing? Yeah, so it, there's a couple of, there's almost, there's more than a couple of scenarios, but there's two sort of areas that I find we land in, in, in coaching. One is somebody who is. Incredibly articulate and very well versed, explaining exactly what's going on and are caught up in their words. And in those scenarios, I find I have to do some physical work with them. So either working on a timeline, working on something around creativity, picking an object, talk, something that enables them to move out of just talking because it's so well. Born in them, it's difficult for them to find the learning and, and timeline work I find is really helpful. So we, we think of a time in the past when the person had all of these resources that they're looking for. We think about a time in this moment where they're. They're struggling and we sort of anchor to those moments and we use them to show them that there was a pastime, that they had this, and that's a set of resources they can bring into the future. So sometimes just getting clients to think about, you know, has it always been like this? What? What has happened in your life where you felt hugely capable and able and what was different? So sometimes just helping them see they've got those resources can be really, really useful. For clients who are perhaps not used to thinking or talking about it, but are a bit more afraid of it just gentle inquiry I find really helps. So talk to me about what this is. Why is it important for you to think about this just now? What would, what would it be like if you didn't have this? So, almost. Creating an environment where it just allows them to talk and loosen the hold that this might have with them. And then it's into, so, you know, where would you like to take this? What would be helpful? What might be a useful way to look at this? So iceberg coaching can be really helpful. So what might be underlying this idea of. There may be beliefs around, I have to get everything right all the time. I have to be the person that knows everything. So sometimes belief systems can really collude with the imposter syndrome a little, and that can get quite complicated. So stuff around beliefs, iceberg coaching, and maybe getting a little bit behind what's going on can be really helpful. But most importantly, I think it's about giving the client the space to talk about it. Because it's a little bit like not like a dirty secret, but someone say, well, yeah, I think I suffer from imposter syndrome and no, actually dreadful. So you just want to say, well, okay, sounds like, you know, that might be a topic where, is that being something you want to talk about or what? What is going on? Is that useful? Is it not useful? So just creating some space around it I find really helps. And then you start to see a bit of a shift and the client goes, well, actually. I dunno why I thought that I, I'm more than capable in that room. Hmm. So why, why did I feel like that? Oh, well that's interesting. And you, so then you can start exploring, okay, so what are you learning? What are you noticing? And I think, I think imposter syndrome can not always fall into the same places. Anxiety. So it's almost like it's a shortcut. Right after I decided I've got imposter syndrome. But I, I can't do anything about that, or I'm just gonna get anxious. Whereas if you start to open up that there's a possibility of something else, then it doesn't maybe have quite the same hold. Mm-hmm. At least that's what I've seen with some clients. Mm-hmm. You, you know what was just striking me then, Julie, was about this idea of the safety and how. When I heard you saying that, clients might say, oh, I've, you know, I've just got imposter syndrome. It almost sounds a bit deflective and dismissive. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well that's just a given. So we are just going to have to work around that rather than look at it. And yet what you are advocating is that we look at it and so that safety. Is is probably very important, isn't it? Because as you say, it is almost like some kind of taboo dece disease, isn't it? My god, you know, she got imposter syndrome or whatever. It's, I mean, it's like one of those, it's a taboo potentially in work. In workplace particularly. It's like a bit of a taboo topic, isn't it? And so it's almost as though we accept, don't we? Sometimes we accept. The difficulty because it feels too hard to change. Yeah. Yet actually, if we change our relationship with it, it opens up all sorts of things. Absolutely. And, and you know, at its, you know, at its most impactful, it, it, it can. Start to spiral a bit because if somebody's trying to get promoted or get on the succession ladder and they're then told, I think you suffer from imposter syndrome, then there can be a bit of a panic. Oh my God, I need to get rid of this. You know, this is gonna really hold me back when actually this is. This is not quite where we need to focus. Okay, so you want to move on, you want to get the next promotion? Let's talk about that and let's, let's be mindful that there's this thing that you're holding around imposter syndrome, but let's open up and talk about what it is you're really looking to do and, and so labels. Can be used as a shorthand, but they can be quite damaging. And leaders can be told, oh, I think you just suffer from Impost syndrome and that's your issue. Well, great. Thanks for that. Yeah. What do I do with it? And and with the work that you've done, Tracy, have you any particular insights around this that's that's useful for coaches?'cause you've got so much experience. Well, what what was coming up for me was something that you mentioned actually, Julie, which is around the belief side of things. And I was thinking not just about my beliefs around my ability to do X or YZ role but what is my belief about imposter syndrome? Because we know that, you know, the power of our beliefs is, is significant. And if I. If I believe that I have this thing called imposter syndrome and that is just, I just have to accept that that's my lot in life. Mm-hmm. How open am I going to be to change? Mm-hmm. It's like, it's that thing of, you know, if you believe you can, or you believe you can't, you are right. So if I believe I can. Think about what what my relationship is with this term imposter syndrome, then great. But if I'm, if I'm really thinking, no, no, no, this is something I, I've, I was born with this and I've just got to live with it, then that's a harder nut to crack, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I think, and because. That label imposter syndrome, or however you want to use it, can start to land in the belief area relatively quickly. Yeah. Then, and we know that beliefs are hard to change. You know, they are difficult to shift because they're, they're almost like they table legs that hold up our table of reality in the world. So you start to want to shift those, then you, you're probably shifting a lot of other things. So if I, if I believe. That I have imposter syndrome, and then I suddenly have to believe that isn't what I have, then what am I doing? What do I do with that? Yeah, what might I have to face? What might I have to look at? And I think that the role, I think one of the most important roles as a coach or anybody that works. Somebody around their development or growth has to consistently think about the safety you create for that person. Yeah. It, it's at the basis of our, you know, you know, hierarchy of needs is, is the environment is safe and secure. And I think if you place somebody in an environment where they feel at peace with that, then they have, they, they're able to open up. Their own little sandbox and look in because they know they're safe for it. So that is, it's fundamental, which is why I think a coaching conversation, it, I'm sure it happens in therapy as well, but a coaching conversation has those. Parameters around it about safety more so than a conversation or a chat and a corridor or a one-to-one review or a performance. It, there's something about that coaching space that allows somebody to go, yeah, this is, this is upsetting me or worrying me, or it's helping me, it's holding me back. How can I do something about that? And I think the study is the most important thing. Yeah. Before they can start with that. And I guess also, even though some of these beliefs that are the legs of the table that we are very attached to, aren't we? Mm-hmm. Because we invest, I guess they guide and inform how we operate in life. These beliefs that they would have been formed perhaps at some point for a reason. Yeah, while, while you were just talking, I was just suddenly came over sort of feeling a bit like a bit vulnerable in my tummy because I remembered a situation just literally a minute ago. Mm-hmm. And I was, oh, I must have been seven. And I'd moved house with my parents and we've moved to a different town, but I hadn't changed schools yet. So I was still going to my old school and I'd started to make friends with a girl of the same age as me over the road. And we caught up sometimes, you know, cycling up, up and down the road. And one day I thought, oh, I'll go and knock on her door and see if she'd like to come out to play. And I've knocked on the door and she was having a birthday party, which I had not been invited to. Because it was all for her school friends at her school, and I didn't know any of them. And her mum being the lovely person that she was said, oh, come on, come in, come in. And it was the most excruciatingly painful experience because I thought, I, I'm, I'm, I am an imposter here. You know, I, I clearly don't belong here and I wasn't invited. So you can see, can't you? How. Those, those, you know, one-off silly little situations that happen mm-hmm. That can lead you when you do move into something new where perhaps you are. The only man or the only woman, or the only young person or whatever it is, you move into that new situation, it can feel suddenly very destabilizing, can't it? Oh, completely. And you know, I, I was just thinking when you're telling that story of, you know, whenever you're in a situation, you know, as adults where. For some reason, you've got to pick a team and or to play a board game or something. We all remember that time when we're lined up at school, you know who's gonna be picked for what team and who's left as the stragglers that kind of nobody wants, and almost every adult you speak to will have some sort of memory of that course and, and we're hardwired to fit in. We're hardwired to be in the gang, to be in the community because of that safety. So whenever we feel that we're not, again, that's probably a pretty instinctive thing. And how we look at that and how we view that decides how we. Deal with it and how we tackle it. I was recently working with an amazing woman who is just, she's done incredibly well. She runs her own big company and she says, I've never suffered from imposter syndrome, because she runs a belief.'cause when she was younger, she actually had a lot of illnesses and she was always told You, don't worry, you'll manage it. You'll get through this. You'll get through this. And she said, I just keep telling myself I'll get through it. So she runs a belief that although it's hard, that's okay because she'll just get through it. Yeah. And so those early experiences, they, they hang around. You know, they, they don't disappear. They hang around. Yeah. But I, I love that that piece that you just shared though about that lady around, you know, just because something's hard, it doesn't mean it's not possible. Yeah. Isn't it? And, and you know, we do, we are creatures of habit, even the negative habits. Yes. And, and we also know that the brain likes the path of least resistance. Yeah. And so sometimes it feels, doesn't it so much easier to tolerate in this instance, imposter syndrome or whatever we wanna call it. It can sometimes feel more comfortable to deal with that discomfort than the fantasy of the discomfort it's going to take to dismantle it and, and reframe it. And yet. There becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, doesn't it? Because we, we are, we are proving ourselves, right. That we can't do it. Yeah. And I think what makes it particularly poignant at the moment is almost every single method you use to communicate or share a story, social media, et cetera, it's always comparing each other. You know, I mean, I only have to mention something to my husband and I've got a whole feed of, you know, the vitamins you need to have, or this is your daily routine, or you never match up. You're constantly never matching up. So there's this overwhelming sense that, you know, I, I need to be good enough. I need to be good enough, and I think it. If you have any slight concern that you are not, I think this environment at the moment I say at the moment, I just suppose it's never gonna change. It doesn't help it, it does collude with that and therefore it's an even bigger. I believe it's even more important to encourage clients when they are doing change work to see what is possible and what you can change that benefits you as in service of you that actually allows you to, to leave some of that more at the edges. Yeah, most definitely. I, I think, I think there could be such a tangent here to a whole nother conversation, which maybe is for another time around. Yeah. You know, this idea of the comparisons and Well, they say comparisons the killer of confidence, don't they? Yeah. Which of course is, is very much what you are speaking to, and I'm just thinking not just about adults and leaders, but young people Yeah. Who are still in that formative, you know, in terms of their emotional, psychological development. I see that in, you know, my children Yeah. And, and their friends and things where. Everyone else is that much more Yeah. Glamorous or yeah. You know, beautiful or capable or successful or Yeah. You know what it might be. And so that trend is, is, is perpetuated, isn't it? In, in the way we. Engage with social media and, and where we draw our reference points from, where we draw our benchmarks from. Yeah. And, and what even what normal looks like. What is normal, you know, and it's not, you know, you, you kind of. Take a, if you take a look at how people feel the ought to look and present, I remember my daughter, she was about eight. And very much getting into that sense of, you know, looking a certain way and seeing all these images of people that. Frankly, we're all photoshopped. And we watched a program which talked about, you know, if you're seeing a photograph of somebody that isn't them through a, a long lens at a beach, it is photoshopped. I mean, it is, everything's photoshopped. And they actually showed how you could take a slice of pepperoni pizza and actually with Photoshop, turn it into a beautiful girl. Oh my gosh. And, and part of me showing it to Bethany was to see. You need to watch that what you see isn't actually what is real. And had some being degrees of impact, I guess. So there's, there's this context of the world and everybody's competing no matter what age you're at. It's not even as if the adults have grown up. You know, we've got people constantly in search of being this perfect image and, and, and, and body. So with all of that as a, as a kind of a backdrop to life. It can, you are already feeling a little insecure and it doesn't speak much. I think for somebody to nudge into a place that's not really helpful, which is why I think it's, it's a really important topic that we could probably talk about for really a long time. Absolutely. And, and I think almost the, the nutshell of this is something you just shared, Julie, about your story with with what you were sharing with Bethany. You said what you see isn't always real, which is coming right back round, is if I see myself as an imposter, it's not necessarily real because I think of myself as an imposter. It doesn't mean I am. No, absolutely. And so and so there is that, what's the diff, you know, perception and reality and what is my belief about myself and I can change my belief. Yeah, ab absolutely. That they're, you know, sometimes it takes a bit of work. Yeah. And I think as a coach, you know, one of the things that we can, we can also hold very tightly is this idea where, you know, we, we have to provide the best environment and ask the best questions and give the best experience to the client. But we are human too. And, and we can only do. Our best in that moment. And I think if we, if we go into it with the right intentions, the right care and love, then we're doing our best. And, and sometimes it's also quite important, I think, for clients to see that we are, we're not trying to be per, we are not trying to be perfect. You know, we're dealing with the awareness of the things that we are not still that comfortable with that. That is our journey. And as a coach, we're a wee bit more tied into that. But that's where our growth and our development is. We're never a finished product. As a. I keep telling myself, I was gonna say you, you're trying to say that we as coaches accept that we're not perfect. Well, there are moments where I have to say that I'm not always as balanced of you as that. But that, that's where the fun is too, I guess. Absolutely. Well, you know, medic heal thyself, as they say, we're just as capable of feeling this as anybody else, aren't we? Absolutely. And and I think it's important to remember that and as a, as a coach and somebody that's helping somebody on their pathway we need to be gentle with ourselves and kind with ourselves.'cause we can only be we can only be human with this whole process as well. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Well, that feels like a lovely note perhaps to to pause on. As you say, I feel like we could take this in all sorts of different directions. I know, I know. We may well do, who knows? Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. I've really enjoyed that. So bye. It's been lovely. Thanks so much, Tracy. Thank you. You have been listening to Coaching in Conversation by Tracy Sinclair, a podcast aimed at exploring how coaching is a vehicle for human development in today's and tomorrow's world. You can learn more about coach training and development@tracysinclair.com and follow us on social media. 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