Hello, my name is Tracy Sinclair. Welcome to Coaching and Conversation. Coaching in Conversation is a chance to discuss and explore, not just how we can keep developing. And ensuring as coach practitioners, but also to consider how coaching is evolving and its future potential and place as a powerful vehicle for human development in today's and tomorrow's world. I'll be sharing some of my own thoughts on these topics. And we will also hear from some great guests from around the world who bring their unique experience and perspectives. Hello again everyone. It's Tracy Sinclair here with another episode of Coaching in Conversation. This time I'm having a conversation with Julie Langford, who is an executive coach that has worked for many years in financial services working most recently coaching the top talent leadership tier within the NatWest group. She has 30 years of experience of change management, leadership development program management, project management, et cetera. And Julie has experienced many of the coaching challenges that come into our coaching sessions. And one of the ones that she has noticed an increasing amount of is overwhelm. And so she is going to. Talk to us a little bit about that today, and the title of this episode is called Where's the Off Button? I hope you enjoy. Thank you so much. So Julie, thank you so much for coming back to have another conversation with me. I'm really looking forward to this. Maybe for those who haven't heard. Our other podcast together. Would you like to just say a little bit about yourself and the work that you do, and then we'll move into our topic of choice for the day. Oh, yes. Thank you, Tracy. It's lovely to be back and I enjoyed the first one so much. I thought I'd come and do a second. So for those of you that, that don't know me, my name is Julie Langford. I am an executive and coach that works with leaders and managers. Have a background in. Corporate financial services, but now work with a full range of different people, predominantly leaders who are looking to move into C-suite and maybe facing some of the challenges around confidence or maybe even imposter syndrome as they navigate into that space. And I work for myself and I thoroughly enjoy the work that I do. That's what we always say as coaches, isn't it? We have the best job in the world, so we do. We do. I think that's probably true. Yeah. So today's topic is around the subject of overwhelm. Which is, I think, very topical given that at this point in time at least, overwhelm is something that seems to be very present in so many contexts. So let's, let's kick off and just invite you to start sharing a few thoughts around overwhelm and I guess what brings you to raise that as a topic for discussion. Yeah, thank you, Tracy. So I think it's a, as you say, it's a topic that's in discussion a lot and you hear the word overwhelm a lot. You often hear things around stuckness or unable to know what the next step might be and what I am. Really aware of is as I work more with clients who have very demanding roles or roles that take them into quite a lot of different activities, maybe quite senior roles, but it's not just connected to seniority. This constantly being on. And available is really impacting their ability to consolidate and process in their jobs. And they're often presenting with this sense of just, I've got so much to do I can't see the wood for the trees. And overwhelm becomes really quite a, an initial response to all of that. And I see that a lot in the coaching. And I think the reason for really paying attention to it at the moment is that in this age of constantly being accessible and huge volumes of information and incredibly fast pace of change, there's no off switch at the time. And when people come to coaching they've got. To the end of their road that I just don't know what to do. Now with all of this, I know I need to pay attention to the fact I'm feeling overwhelmed, but I don't even know where to start with it. So alongside this kind of constant doing, there's almost this paralysis of, I don't know how to get outta this. It's almost as if they're in some sort of fight or flight and. I am noticing that's coming into the coaching so much more now than I was seeing, say even 10 even five or 10 years ago. And as I work with clients, the con, the other factor that is difficult is they don't really prioritize the switching off. This constant churning and doing and being in the moment, even though they're noticing, there's a sense of them going, gosh, I really need to slow down and stop and do some thinking, do some pausing. That's almost always deprioritized. Because it isn't quite worth the priority and it's not as valued as being busy. So this all seems to contribute to what can be a really difficult state to live in when you're trying to achieve in a working environment. And so I'm really noticing there's now a number of factors at play that almost keep the client hooked into that space. In a way that I just wasn't seen before to the same extent. Then my mind is boggling here.'cause there's so many different things that are firing off for me. But one of the things I wanted to just to comment on was you referencing that people seem to be almost bringing it to coaching too late in that Yeah. It's, it gets raised in coaching, or coaching is only brought in at the point when the person is already feeling overwhelmed. And it reminds me of the mental health space as well. Given my various interactions and relationships over the years with the mental health system, at least in this country people. People can only really get access to support when it's a bit late. When they've already crossed a threshold of wellbeing to the point where it's really quite critical and the system gets very overloaded with that and therefore can't help people sooner. Yeah, and my perspective on coaching has always been that's where coaching could come in because coaching. Whilst it's not, therapy could support someone from having to, being able to avoid therapy or counseling or sickness and burnout or whatever, because coaching could intervene sooner, however. That is challenged if as what you are saying is true, which I've seen myself. Coaching is also often not coming in soon enough. Not necessarily only for overwhelm, but for many other challenges that leaders and non-leader, employees face in the workplace, given the current times and the complexity of that. So I think I just wanted to underscore that the timing. Is really critical here of not leaving things too late. Yeah. And being proactive around addressing things before that critical point of overwhelm or paralysis really gets a hold. Yeah. And it's really interesting because what then tends to happen in the coaching is the first real session is simply an offloading, a kind of unburdening in this sort of space. And what's really interesting is. And it's all, it's fascinating when you look at beliefs around what's acceptable and what's not acceptable is that somehow having a set amount of time that is now paid for and in your diary to reflect and pause somehow then goes up the priority list, oh, that is the time I'm going to use. So quite a lot of clients will say What I've loved more than anything in terms of the coaching is I've got this dedicated time and they don't say. Because I can legitimately stop. But actually, I think that's what they're doing. They've got this legitimate space that they can pause and just sit back and go, what, what on Earth is going on? And I totally resonate with what you're saying. There's almost a, if there was one sort of message I would send organizations is start with a conversation with people about letting some ear out of the balloon. If you like, of their day-to-day stresses, this building them up and holding them. They are all gonna come out at some point that they're not gonna just disappear. And I think coaching is an a, a slightly less. Maybe labeled help that perhaps counseling or psychotherapy might be. I think coaching's got a little bit of a gentler label of somebody was concerned about that. But I'm seeing clients, as you say, coming into coaching when they are they're spent. They're no longer thriving. They are simply surviving. And therefore, a couple of those coaching sessions is just to give them enough, enough space to steady themselves again. And even their ability to really reflect and think about what they need, they're not in a space to do that at that point. Yeah. It's a simple questions like, so what are you wanting from this coaching? I have no idea. I dunno. That's fine. Okay. That's, and that's fine. So let's explore what that looks like. It's not knowing. So they're just so far in that place of disconnect to knowing how they can help themselves of what they need, that they almost need that time to get them into that space. And coaching can do that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So we've got, I think, real alignment here that the sooner, the better. To let the air outta the balloon, as you were saying, in some way. Yeah. Going back then to the causes of overwhelm, you've already highlighted a massive area there of just space, lack of space. The speed and the multiplicity of, and the complexity of people's working days perpetuated by virtual, working back to back zooms. Yeah. Being connected in different time zones, always switched on, et cetera. Which of course, probably has perpetuated since the pandemic and more virtual working. But also seems to be just some kind of, at least western cultural shift. And maybe even in the east as well. I'm gathering that things are speeding up quite a lot. Yeah. In the east as well, what other things, if anything, are you seeing that's underlying people's overwhelm as aside from this big area of just too much, too quickly? Yeah. I think there's. There's a couple of things that can start to play into this space that I am seeing, and I'm conscious that I'm sometimes working with quite senior people who are looking for a promotion, who are looking to move into a very senior position. So there's almost a. Either an expectation they are holding about looking like they can cope. So almost not ever saying no to something coming in trying to still be the parent or the friend or the wife or the husband or the mother so that they're not letting that go because they know that's important. And so I'll just take on more. So there's something about not looking like you can't cope. Therefore just keeping doing. And I think that can play out when you might be on a talent list. There's a senior job coming up in six to 12 months. You might be in competition with somebody else. It. Possibly might feel like an interview over those next few months. So you are not wanting to let anything slip. I think there's some other underlying factors around this hybrid working almost at times feels we've got the worst of both worlds. So there's either a desire of everybody in the office all the time, and so you don't get some of that quieter or work-life balance at home. Or if you're working at home, you're back to back in meetings literally without a breath. And we know that constantly working with any sort of pause means you stop working effectively after a certain number of hours. You're just not operating well. There's in all of that mix, there's some sort of inner beliefs around what's expected of that person, how they should be coping and the working environment. And there's still something about, and you talked about productivity. I think the UK is one of the least productive countries in Europe, yet we do the most hours. So there's something about this constantly being busy. I remember a lot a senior leader one saying to me, we need to be careful. We're not busy fools. Constantly being busy is somehow better, even if that's not productive, than sitting and doing nothing or pausing. And the factor that makes this really quite important for certain levels is. At a senior level as a leader, you're actually being recruited into that job for your thinking skills, for your expertise, and longer term legacy impact for your understanding of what really good strategic decision making looks like. And you cannot do that if you're in a state of panic or rush. You can't use that intellectual mind like that. And so it's counterintuitive this busyness. As opposed to having some sort of reflection, consolidating and thinking time when that's actually what they're being paid for. So there's a real mindset shift here, isn't there? And I think you mentioned beliefs earlier, beliefs around how we add value, what you know, in this instance, the need around what constitutes either productivity or value. And how we seem to have got caught into this place of value is being busy. Yeah. Rather than taking time to think carefully. Yeah. Yeah. And the thinking carefully is so powerful because, and I've, I've seen it firsthand, is that rush decision making. When everybody's in this panic crisis mode, that decision can cost a lot of money if it's wrong. That decision can cost a lot of resource if it's wrong. And actually taking a step and really thinking through what your contribution is can make a massive impact on organization in a really positive way. So there, there is this through coaching. As you start to slow things down and really start to pay attention, you give the client a reference experience of the slowing down being really value add. They might never have had it up until that point. Yeah. And I guess as you are saying that, what I've also noticed is that sometimes, even though they need it, clients may resist that because they can't, they're almost addicted to Yes. Through the speed. And can be a little resistant sometimes at the slowness, the perceived slowness of of coaching in that there's this belief that speed equals good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah it, that is so very true. And it's a bit like sharing a story about, my father was not a very patient man. I remember him planting a tree in the garden and, a week later, my mom and him are out in the garden and he's, he dug it up and mom said, what? What are you doing with that tree? He said It wasn't growing fast enough after a week. Yeah. So we can fall into that. I want it now. Similar mindset. What I notice is when clients are at a place of real stuckness and sort of internal panic. They're open to try anything. So there's something about when they get to that point, they just need help. But also when we start to reflect on what they're learning and what they're understanding about how they're operating, they almost start to notice themselves some of those behaviors around busyness almost being their own addiction. And they start to, to pay attention to that. Even though they might not like the thought of that, they start to notice that's having a, that's having a part to play. So that's really fascinating and I'm I'm really noticing almost a process here of how the leader incrementally becomes more and more overwhelmed. To the point of, panic, paralysis, freeze flight, freeze, as you were saying. And then there can be almost an openness to try anything because of just, I guess the sheer enormity of how they're feeling. Given that coaches are hopefully maybe other people than coaches as well, but given that. Primarily coaches are going to be listening to this. What in your experience, has therefore been, some of the most useful ways to engage with people that present these kinds of circumstances? Yeah, and obviously it will depend on the client and how they present. So a recent client I've been working with. It was very much in this space. We started to draw out all the things that she's trying to manage in her life on a whiteboard. So the work, the family, the friends, the outside job the navigating this and almost starting to see it in front of her and relating it to. The kind of the charge on a battery. So what were the things that were draining her battery and what were the things that were filling up her resourcefulness, if you like, her battery and the consequences? She started to write down about when the battery wasn't getting charged, and then she sat back and went, oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. That is a lot. So having a way of visually representing what is going on for somebody here was a really useful way to start to lay out what she was dealing with. And interestingly, when she first started talking, it was within a language of, oh, everybody faces into this sort of stuff. It's quite normal to feel like this. It's just a really busy time. But actually when she saw it and really looked at it, there was a shift. And she said, I need to do something about this. So there was almost, it was kind really played out in front of her. The other. Technique, which I guess is probably what would happen anyway, is letting them do a lot of talking at the start. So they almost it's a bit like the fizz in a can of Coke. You need to let all that it's gonna come out, it's, get out and then you've got, you can pour a glass and it's all gonna be fine. And actually sometimes there'll be a, an actual physical somatic response to that, but almost this. This, laying it all out or talking it through. Actually they hear it. They hear what they're saying, and it's almost like they're getting a chance to pay attention to that. So as a coach, what I have to work hard on doing. And you will know this from me is I have to work hard on giving them that space and not feeling I need to be helpful with a great question or good summary, but just to give them that space, however long it takes to almost start to completely unwind down into a space where we could possibly do some work. So I found that really helpful and, what I tend to do is at that point, not try and land too much around, by the time I get to the end of the session, how do you want to be? Because we're just in this space of, they don't know, they don't even know where to begin at sometimes. So that's the sort of things I've found to be quite helpful. There's a couple of things that you are making me think about there, Julie. One is, as you were saying earlier about the resisting our temptation to help, isn't it? Or to, potentially rescue by going into problem solving mode. When actually probably they would like that perhaps at times because it's a very difficult, uncomfortable place to be, isn't it? And we just want an answer or a solution, some relief or whatever. And so we do have to take care of really reminding ourselves, that our client is still created, resourceful and whole. And they can find their way outta this. They just need a bit of space and time to do that. And the other thing that you were making me think of was just under underscoring the need, therefore for psychological safety because as you said earlier. There are still many leaders, even though we're supposed to be so much more advanced now, there's still a sense isn't there, especially for the more senior one becomes that you have to have that stiff upper lip and that you have to be perceived as coping and fine because everyone's looking to you, so you need to know what to do, surely and so that's a very vulnerable place to be, isn't it? And I still find personally, even though. Coaching is so much more, accessible and available now than it was say 10 years ago. Particularly in corporate coaching, there is still that sense of having to hold oneself together. Yeah. And so the amount of psychological safety that is needed to just allow the person to be honest really? Yes. To be honest. Yeah. In that space to say, I'm not dealing very well with this. This is not good. Yeah. It is. It's so important. Such a good point, Tracy, because they by the very situation they find themselves in is they've not been able to tell anybody. They've not, or they've not told many people. So there's this, there's almost a shame attached to saying this is all too much. When an actual fact, in reality, when things are too much for people, you it becomes quite ovi. It is. It is noticeable. People will notice. So you're not really able to hide it as well as you might think so, so going in and getting some help in that space is so important. But there was something that you'd said just as we were talking about the client's reluctance to work. On the thing and wanting the answer. That is so true. You, I've had a client say to people, I just need to get some advice, just what should I do next? Not sure I'm gonna be able to help you with accountancy, but, so there's something about that. But what I have done, because sometimes you do have to balance between the client feeling so lost, that if it's also ethereal. They almost get even more worried and stuck against giving them the answer. And what I sometimes do is say look, I can provide you with some mentoring at the end. We'll give some time for that. So I you can get this, but for now, let's. Just keep exploring what is happening and what you're thinking about because I see you really beginning to engage in this, so I will sometimes flag that you can get that bit from me if that's what you want, and we'll place a little bit. And what invariably happens is they don't really ask for it, but maybe then say, oh, what was that suggestion you were going to have? I say in addition to what you call, come up with, so sometimes you want to, or I have chosen to respond to that need. So that they know that I, it is a safe space and I have got them in the way that works best for them. Let's go to something you mentioned before we started recording. You talked about how coaches can also pick up on, as we know, the more empathic you become as a coach, the more you are going to. Feel somebody else's energy and emotions and in this instance overwhelm. And so what are your thoughts or experiences around that and the impact that can have on us as a coach? Yeah it's so powerful. So I would say when I was really starting to work with clients and maybe wasn't as experienced, I would notice that overwhelm. And think I needed to help because in most circumstances that's what I would do. So you feel like, oh my goodness, the port shame, this person's gonna do that. I'll give them some suggestions. So the urge is strong to step in and help. I think what I notice now is that if somebody's presenting with a lot of stuff. I'm noticing a sense of overwhelm myself. That's probably what's going on for the client. So it's just giving me a bit of a clue and I think it's a really difficult balance and I would definitely say this is something I'm still working on, is to know when to. Intervene slightly and just give them a chance to pause and take a breath and when to just let it keep running because sometimes it can run and run and run and run and run, and then you can start to panic a bit as a coach. So there's always this sort of internal dialogue of, oh, if I let them go too far, and then they just spiraling out of control. But what I have learned is that if you do give space. Eventually the client does start to slow down and you get more pauses and noticing your own overwhelm you can share with a client. So like I, I know I did this with my recent clients that, gosh, everything you've shared I, that feels really tiring. That feels quite exhausting. So you can take that awareness that you're spotting in yourself as a coach and ask if you can share that. The client. And actually that ends up building that trust because sometimes I've had clients say to me, is it just me? Is it me? That's the problem? Is this only happening to me? And invariably I say no, because if it was only happening to you, I wouldn't be doing this job very often. I wouldn't be having many clients. Yeah. But it feels lonely and they feel unaired. So by. Noticing that overwhelm or noticing what is going on for you. I found sharing that appropriately with the client makes them feel like, oh God, yeah you get it. Which I think is incredibly powerful in that place of safety and honoring the client in a way that they can feel they can really trust you. Because the trust at this point is pivotal because they've not been able to trust anybody else up until this point.'cause they would've shared it with them. Yeah. So it's interesting, isn't it, as we've been talking today, if we just ground this back into coaching and what's most valuable for these clients from us as coaches? Trust, safety listening, presence, normalizing. Yeah. And just having give, just literally creating those conditions where they can just release, and share with sometimes very minimal obvious intervention, but that first port of call being to hold that space for them. Yeah. Yeah. The one other thing I would mention, and this has happened a couple of times as well, is sometimes. A client has presented with being quite kind of agnostic around coaching. So they've wanted it, we've had the chemistry session, but we come to the session, they're full of stuff in their head and they're kinda like, I really dunno what this, I dunno what coaching's gonna do. I'm just really busy. There's a lot going on. And there's almost like this frustration and anger that you can start to feel. And it sounds like it's directed at you as the coach, but actually it's really something underlying that, that is causing them to respond. So I think as a coach, it's always important to keep holding your own space and saying isn't this interesting? I wonder what behavior might be driving that? What might be at the heart of that? This for the client? And I had one client who was quite antagonistic at the start of the session. As we went through was just really horribly overwhelmed and just incredibly upset and worried about myself. Yeah, and so it's really that this sort of presence and holding yourself as a coach, you have to, that has to be such a greatly well tuned muscle that the triggers don't hit you. You have to hold that space and go, this person is. Is just where they are. And that's probably one of the hardest things I've had to work on because I'm quite a responsive person. Yeah. That means I pick up responses positively and negatively. So as a coach, that's probably been the hardest one for me to work, and I'm still working on that. Yeah. I think we always have to work on that, because we are. We are permeable, aren't we? Yes. And our empathy perpetuates that in a way. And so that balance between being highly empathetic with people and holding our own boundary of safety at the same time, there's a paradox there isn't there. And so me, that's something that yes, we do build a capacity for that over time. And there'll be certain days, certain times of the day, certain clients, certain topics where our guard is down a little bit and we, we become more vulnerable to those things as well, which is, where this conversation for me also applies to coaches because I notice that. Just because we are working in a space that's in being in service of other people, it doesn't mean to say that coaches don't feel overwhelmed with the things that are going on in their lives, especially if they are absorbing some of this energy and the anxiety or the stress or whatever. And, so I guess I'm, part of me wants to just put my hand up to be the advocate here for coaches to also have that space for themselves, to have their own, whether it's supervision or whether it's a coach or both, we need those things too, don't we? Oh, absolutely. And I think probably even more so being able to give yourself the space to. To just process and give yourself the time, because when clients are coming in with more anxiety or overwhelm. Feeling perhaps more lost or stuck. They really need you to be able to help them with that. And if you are also in a bit of a vulnerable or a place where you're just feeling a bit over overwrought, it's really hard because that energy is already being used up in a similar way that their energy's already being used up. So if you're only ever working on 20% each it's going to be quite hard. I think the other thing is that as a coach. It's also to remember that you don't see what the client takes away after that session. You don't see perhaps those, that moment in the coaching where you would've been oblivious to, but the client has suddenly thought, oh, maybe I can do this and maybe this is something I can tackle. And to always remember that. However you think that coaching session has gone. And we always like to try and assess it, is that if we've come at it with the integrity of a good coach, we give them something that they also take away and work with. And if nothing else, they have a reference experience of somebody really listening to them. And that can be hugely powerful. Yeah. So I think there's, lots of a good coach can do, but where none of us are perfect, but even if we get the basics really good, that's so much better than clients are facing into ordinarily. Yeah. Which is important to remember, I think. I think you started this by talking about the on switch and how it's always on. So I guess the antidote to this is make sure that there's a switch off. Absolutely. Switch off at times as well. So yeah. Will it, is there anything I'm just mindful we're probably at the end of our time now. Is there anything. But we've not shared that you'd just like to put into this space before we pause. I, I don't think so. It's probably something we could talk about for a really long time. And it's just been so lovely to, for me to be able to share and let's out of my balloon, around the things that I'm facing into and hoping that resonates with other coaches and and perhaps, allows them to have a bit of a think about. Anything that's been useful for today, or maybe give some food for thought. I imagine it does resonate for many other coaches, I would imagine in today. Yeah. Thank you so much, Julie. It's been really good talking with you. It's been lovely. Tracy, thank you again. Thank you. Have been listening to Coaching in Conversation. By Tracy Sinclair, a podcast aimed at exploring how coaching is a vehicle for human development in today's and tomorrow's world. You can learn more about coach training and development@tracysinclair.com and follow us on social media. If you enjoyed this podcast, please leave a rating and review and also share it with your networks to help us expand our reach. Thank you for listening. I'll see you next time.