Hello, my name is Tracy Sinclair, and welcome to Coaching in Conversation, the Mastery Series concept of mastery in coaching, and I have the great pleasure of talking with several ICF Master Certified Coaches from around the world to understand what mastery really means to them, both as coaching practitioners and also as human beings. We explore many different perspectives and nuances of this topic, and I hope it is of use and interest to you as you continue to navigate your own pathway of development Hi, everyone. It's Tracy Sinclair here again with another episode of Coaching in Conversation. And this time, I'm offering an episode as part of our mastery series. I've got the great pleasure today of talking with Cecilia Engquist, MCC, who is a certified leadership and executive coach. She's also a coach instructor and a coach mentor. She has over 20 years of experience working with organizations and leaders to expand enterprise thinking and develop emotional intelligence to really i- innovate and create as much impact in their organizations as possible. One of her specialisms is really when her work comes to life by her mind, body approach so that people's full wisdom and creativity can come into their leadership. And she draws upon some very interesting parts of her own life when she does this, which is the is having been an elite international equestrian athlete, as well as an ultra-marathon runner. She's worked in multiple industries across the world, and she has a truly global mindset given that she has worked and lived in various countries on three different continents since her teenage years. She's also volunteered for many years for the ICF and has served several terms for the ICF Houston Chapter board, including two years as the president of that chapter, and she's currently the vice chair of operations on the IRB, which is the independent review body that oversees the ICF ethical conduct review process. So here today, I'm talking to Cecilia about her experience of working towards her MCC and what mastery actually means to her and what it doesn't mean. And today's episode is called The Babbling Brook. I hope you enjoy Cecilia, thank you so much for joining me for this conversation. And as we were just commenting before we recorded, I love, for those of you who are watching this rather than listening, I just love the backdrop of part of your hometown or your history. And I'm really… I'm sure maybe some of that might come into the conversation, but I'm also here to have a conversation with you about mastery, and would love to hear your thoughts on what mastery means for you and I guess the pathway that you've taken towards getting your MCC. Thank you. I am so thrilled to be with you in this room, and I said that before, and you've been a part of this journey for me. So what is mastery? For me, it's a part… It's just being. If I was to capture one word what mastery is, it's being. It's being in the flow in a space where things are moving, where it's effortless in a way. And I know that I will speak a lot in metaphors. I speak a lot in metaphors. So hopefully people can visualize it. Moving into that little space for me, it shows up as a, maybe a little brook that has little babbling water going through. It meets something that might be a rock or something, but it finds a way around it, and that is… That- that's the sense that I have in my body when I reach something that might be even approaching what we might call mastery. But I, I think we're gonna deep, dig more deeper into to what it actually i- is and how it shows up. Aren't we? We absolutely are, and of course, I guess why I feel it's useful to do that is because I have a sense that mastery can mean different things to different people. And so what does it mean to you? I've been thinking about that too. So i- if we look at mastery for me for me, for just me again, it's that space of for me being somewhere. It's term. And how do I relate to a term? Is it even definable for me? I don't think… I don't know if it is. I think it is a space and a connection to what happens for me. Ca- can I say that I'm a master? I, nah, I don't think no, I don't think so. Because it's not a label. I think it's more easy to define it from what it's not for me. It's definitely not a label. And I know we have this master certified coach, MCC, and it was always something that was in the realm for me and b- I've been coaching for a long time. I've been coaching for over 20 years. So it's always been there as something to that was in the sphere of my reality. And I wonder maybe one day I will be able to attach that MCC to me. But it was never a goal. It was never something that I had to do it was a journey filled of decisions, practice thought, agony sometimes. I remember one particular time when I was standing with a coach friend of mine at a, in a parking lot, and we had this conversation, and I felt the angst of what is this? What is this credential? Where am I now? What would that mean for me? And I felt a lot, actually a lot of anxiety around the t- the, just the terminology. And after I, I got my MCC, which is now it's only a month or two that I have had it, I posted a post on LinkedIn, and one of my o- coach friends, mentors educators reached out and said, "Finally, you have the letters attached to the mastery of coaching that you've held, that I've seen for over 10 years." So Back to what is it for me? I don't know. I think I'm still figuring that out-… In that space. I've … People perhaps who have listened to my podcast assuming people have listened to my podcast, I think a few have I've often said that I learnt so much more and continue to learn more about mastery, whatever that is, after I got my MCC than before. So I'm hearing something similar there perhaps. Yeah. I, it … when I was preparing for this, when I was thinking about the conversation with you something came up for me, and it's connected to something that I feel deeply about, animals and nature and being in that with that. And I follow I follow a page. It's a nest cam for y- for eagles and I've seen these little eaglets from that they were hatched. They're being fed. They're in the nest, and they're being nurtured by parents and everything that's going on around them, and it can be pretty harsh conditions sometimes with wind and rain and snow and everything that goes on. And finally, one day they start doing something called wingsercises. And they get up, and they start to practice their, their… w- with their wings to strengthen them, and there is no doubt in these eaglets that they are eagles. They know how to do this. It's innate. It's in- inside of them. And they're working towards the day when they can stand on the side of the nest, high up in the sky, and gather the courage to spread their wings and fly. And to me, the MCC label, so to speak, the getting the actual MCC was the moment for me when I released and flew. So the wings were there. It was holding me up in the air. And now… but this is where it comes in. I still… I knew I was the eagle, right? But those wings were still needing a little bit of practice, so my first flight might not have been so far. Mastery is the practice that comes after that first flight. Wow, what a beautiful, it almost sounds like a proverb. Mastery is what comes after that first flight or the practice that comes after that first flight. Yeah. And how- I'm just wondering here and stop me if this is not where your m- where your energy is going, but as I was just listening to you with that beautiful story, I was thinking about life, mastery in life, not of life, but in life. And I was thinking there's something masterful about those little eaglets navigating that phase of their life to th- to the point where they fly, and then there'll be something else that they navigate and, quote unquote, "master" in that just because they've flown, it doesn't mean that the end of their learning or that their journey and their growth in life… They've not arrived because they've now flown. D- does that make sense? Yes, and you really capture it well. Thank you for doing that because that is actually exactly what I meant. Mastery has to be based on experience and actions that we've taken and what we've gathered. But I think also it also has to be accompanied by the willingness to keep developing and grow and and building upon that knowledge. And never think that we got it, I got it now, because we there's always going to be something different. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, so- And without that mindset, we're stuck, and that's not masterful. Yeah, that so deeply resonates with me as well, Cecilia, that if we think of mastery, or in this context the MCC, as once I've got it, I've got it, and that's it, I am now a master, that to me at least that kind of misses the point. And that there is so much more. That's a milestone almost in many milestones, and there are so many things to, to become more masterful in life, which doesn't end when you get the credential. No. It starts there in a way Yeah Because it's a … It- now you can play. Oh, yeah, I got it. I passed all of these things, but now I can really play-… And move in a different maybe way-… And explore even more about where do I It … Yeah. And coming back to that beginner mindset again. Where would I … Be- because i- in a way, and as we're talking, what I'm also thinking is that it's some sort of security. It feels it, it feels like having that is, i- I'll see if I can find a good word. It's validating in a very big way to have reached this point and said, "Okay, you got this, and you reached this here." But so there is that safety and security, and that I can go back and as a new MCC, I can go back and go, "This feels like a relief. This feels like something that I i- cherish, that it feels like something … " It is an, and it is an accomplishment, and it's also a very solid base and and a groundedness in itself. From there, that brings that additional sense of security of oh, okay I got this now. Let's go out and explore even further. I was getting a sense of something very nonlinear there of, y- you know how sometimes these credentials can almost feel like a ladder of, progression. And yet the way you just described that around playing and exploring and discovering and being, having a beginner's mind again didn't feel linear in terms of just, an upward trajectory. It felt more I guess multidimensional, but much more lateral and diverse. Yes. Yeah. I'd love to I'd love to explore something that you said earlier about- Becoming more masterful, I think if I recall your words correctly, it was something around it takes experience. And then you also talked about our own development. I'd love if you would to say a little bit more when you think of your own development or my, for me, my own development as the practitioner, what did that mean for you? I needed to reach a point where I felt that I could take this step. A- and it was a long time for me. It took a long time for me to reach that. I think it was a sense of maturity. It's a sense of allow- maybe even permis- giving myself permission to be there and say, "I would like to take this step for…" And I only did this for me. There was … And I think it was a very distinct shift in how I was relating to, do I wanna do this? Can I do this? All of that to really accepting the point where, okay, now this is my next step, and then all the resistance around it dissolved, and that is often how I make decisions. Is this right for me? And I feel all this, like I'm stuck or I'm in the resistance or it doesn't flow or whatever it could be. But when the time is right and I move into the next space, then is when it starts flowing. And you know that when I met you and we started this journey together and I was exploring and trying to find my, my mentor one thing that I did connect with w- was that questioning, is this really right? Do I really wanna do this? What does this mean for me? And- many never take this step. Because it's such a personal thing. And now I actually forgot what you asked me. Well- Goes over here… i'm I'm… You're probably going co- I- The little coaching trick on you- Oh … and say it doesn't matter what I asked you, does it? 'Cause wherever you went was great. I think so too. You answered… Yeah. I think- You answered the question that you wanted to answer. Yeah, I think I did. I think I did. Yeah. I live in Houston in Texas. And when I look at the night sky here, it… I can't see a lot. Houston's the fourth-largest city in the US. There's a lot of light pollution. And as mu- I'm… much as I want to, I don't see the stars. See some. The brightest ones are there. And a little while ago, about in the beginning of this year, I got the opportunity to go out to an incredible place called Big Bend. And it's a designated dark site for for stargazing and star watching, meaning that everything in the area has to turn off their lights during the night. So you can't… If you drive through a village, you don't even see a light on the outside porch. It is completely dark so that you can see that night sky. And I wanna bring it in because, again, this is what it feels like. The stars are always there. The stars are always there. We might not see them. But when we get the opportunity and see the immense vastness of something that may or may not be unattainable I still felt an enormous connection into… to that night, to those stars, to that vastness, and it reminded me on who I am. And I'm talking about this because that is really how I feel about coaching and the mastery in coaching. There is always that opportunity, but we need to travel to it sometimes. To see it. Yeah. Yeah. And to want to experience it, because people can travel to this beautiful, glorious place and not go outside and look at those stars. Yeah. Yeah. You were just making me think there, I don't know how relevant this is, but you, with what you just said there, you made me think of this idea of how we have this saying of, "I'll believe it when I see it." But if we were to play with those words and say, "I'll see it when I believe it" It's quite a different quite a, has quite a different meaning. And so I was just thinking about that with the traveling to the stars and connecting with them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That resonates for me too. Yeah. It does. And you said a couple of minutes ago, Cecilia, that something happened and all your resistance to doing this fell away and then it flowed. And I was wondering what… Now, as you recall now, or you think back, what was that resistance, do you think? I think I had an idea of what this what mastery and CC was supposed to be That was one thing. And the other thing was I don't think I had- Reached my own development where I needed to be in order to go here. I'm in, in a pretty big transformation and I will use that within the sense of the word transformation, shifting from one thing to another thing. This is not change, this is transformation. And embracing who I am in my coaching was part of that. So the acceptance was This is a a part of my… It is a part of my journey because now my journey is really taking me here. So I'm getting… And please, again, challenge me if I'm off- offline here, but I'm having a sense of inner growth then, or inner- Yes … development, not just us learning how to be a better coach but something that's more about us. Is that right? Yes. Yes. Absolutely. For me, it was not about s- skill or knowing how to coach or… it was not about that. I knew that was always, even if I- clearly and obviously we all do, can use help in getting better in, in technique ways of navigating a coaching conversation the skill. I had all that and I… a- and what I didn't have at the time I could work on. But that wasn't the point for me. It was this inner sense of, okay, now I'm ready. And- And the wanting to go there. And I'm wondering then, for anyone listening to this who is thinking about the MCC or the progression of their coaching to so- whether they go for the MCC or not, but want to be, what we might describe as the very best they can be and to be masterful in this work, what would you be inviting them to consider around their development? I wouldn't… i'm gonna answer that question, but I'm gonna preamble it a little bit because we all have very different reasons for wanting to go this route or this journey or be on this path. One thing that surprised me when I when I had received my MCC and again posted on LinkedIn, and I started to get all these messages from MCCs around the world that I didn't know, and they had all these words for me and I went, "Oh, I'm not really sure what's going on. What's the thing here? What's the deal?" And I reached out to another MCC, a friend and colleague, and he said you have to realize that for many, this is the pinnacle. It's what many are reaching and striving for." And I went, "Oh. Oh." And both of those… It was never like that for me as you heard now. It was more like this is just… it's part of my journey. But for others they may have a completely different reason, and I think we need to find the reason and understand it. So for anybody who's thinking about do I want to go here? Think about… Connect with self and see. Do some work with it. Do some work with it. What is my… and the question that I would ask is what is my relationship to MCC? Who am I in my relationship with MCC? Yeah. And I do love that question of why do I want to do this? And I think the answer or answers to that are often very linked to our success in it actually You know, when we, when having worked with not hundreds of MCCs, 'cause there aren't hundreds of MCCs going through every day, of course. But having worked now with quite a few, it's quite interesting that what that why is for people is quite telling in terms of how they then find the process or how they experience the process. Yeah. You and… I'm curious now what you have discovered around that. What have you discovered? The common theme for me seems to be the things that you're describing, Cecilia, that it's something that is not an externalized quest almost. It's something that actually is internal. It's something about our own personal inner growth and not just a professional standard or a, a behavioral skill that we've now advanced in. Of course, as you said earlier, all of those things come into that, competencies and bars and markers and all of those things. But there's something else that is about that ongoing inner journey of who I am, and in this context, who I am therefore as a coach. But beyond that, who am I as a human being at this point in my life? And I think if we… That, that's the pattern that I'm picking up, that people who are doing this because they want and are engaged with that inner growth, personal growth journey, not just professional, find this a much more… Not an easy path, 'cause I don't know if it's ever an easy path but they find the flow much more readily than someone who is coming from a place of, "I want that," that thing that is more of a marker of skill. Yeah. I don't know if I'm even making sense with that, but that's how it, how I experience it. Yeah. And when you're talking what shows up for me is this, because we're talking about it from an internal sense but what is m- but there is also this external. Who gets to say mastery about somebody else? And, a- and that is so different Yeah Because what is a master to s- one person might not be for another. And I'm thinking about this in relation to, to impact on a client. And I know that when I just started, when I just started coaching and had not much experience and sat with a client the impact was enormous Was it masterful? I don't know. I don't know. I had one client who came back to me after 20 years and said, "20 years ago, you changed life, my life." And I don't know Can a master coach, a master MCC coach not have impact on their client? I'm pretty sure. So again, who gets to say it? It is… and you… and when you say this is a marker of skill according to something that is set and still somewhat subjective, do we see these things? Because it's such an… It's such a loop. It's… I think it's such a feedback loop in how we experience mastery from from our own self. Yeah. Yeah. And our own life perhaps as well. Yeah. Yeah. And just, not switching gears, but mo- moving forwards a little bit to your work, I'd love to hear more about your work, where it's going, what's calling you, 'cause I know you're doing- some really interesting things. What would you like to say about, where your passion is and your work going forward? Yeah. Thank you. I currently I work a lot with leaders executives and in transformation change. And that is… That wa- th- it is connecting to me. I love being in that playground. But what has been calling me is this parallel. I'm almost thinking that it feels like a parallel universe at times to my coaching and with my coaching this draw back into soul-centered work and a true transformation. I think it's a big reflection of where I am in my own journey. But I have this calling back to nature to to be in the flow of our… on what is around us. I do… i'm developing a lot of skill right now in, in the more what, I think we can call it… What can I call it? Nature-guided coaching or nature-centered coaching. Lovely. And I realize that for me, this shows up as an… as the entity where I am not coaching a client, but I'm being the catalyst or the conduit between the environment and the conversation that my client has with that nature. And it's very similar. It's very similar to what I used to do. I don't do equine e- facilitated coaching anymore. I don't use horses anymore, but I am trained in it. And that is the s- It's the same flow where the coach is there present- completely connected in, but not part of really the conversation, but guiding it between the client and the horse and seeing what, what shows up. And that is really speaking to me right now. I wanna do a lot more in that area. I'm so excited I get to do that. I think your energy and your body language is just giving a little hint that's exciting to you. So that's wonderful. And and just to comment on that, we have s- we have so much disconnection, don't we, in the world at the moment? Even though we're more connected on one level than we've ever been, there, there is a sense of disconnection, isn't there, on, on so many levels. And nature is such an important, what's… I don't even know the right word, almost medium context environment for us to be immersed more in. And I'm noticing as well more and more coaches, it's a l- little bit piecemeal, but more and more people who are drawn to go outside for their coaching a turn back to some more in-person coaching where it's feasible than online. And to be in, in nature, to actually connect with that energy that, that we r- you know, we are also part of and that we've got a relationship with. Yeah. Yeah. A- and that connection, I see us losing it so much. And bringing it back into whatever form it might take, it feels really important to me. I think what's happening right now is… And we're speaking about experiences where we were talking about that on Master before. And it feels right now that all of those little threads that have been running through so many years of my life, they're now coming together in that center where they can connect and where I can really start to do the work I'm meant to do. And that feels extremely exciting. Yeah. For those of you who can't see my my, my arms are- … waving, my hands are going up and leaning forward. Yeah. And the eyes are very sparkly. Very sparkly. I can- Very … I can feel it. Yeah, absolutely. And that to me, that even, to keep linking this back to mastery or being masterful, that to me is, feels also part of this as well is there's something about bringing our deep connection with ourself and what our calling is almost, and, in terms of where our energy goes where our intuition is guiding us, to bring that into the work. Because when that comes together, that is magical, isn't it? We know that when everything for us lines up and comes together, we're at our best. We have those peak experiences, don't we? And if we're doing that with our work with clients and we're inviting them to explore how they can do that too, then that feels very, sparkly and energetic to me. Yeah. Yes, absolutely. I couldn't agree more. And I think I have to go back to what I said in the beginning to your first question, what is mastery? It is the being the allowance to be in the flow and where things come together and start flowing and we can move with it with all of these pieces. I don't know if mastery is even possible to ha- to be in if that flow isn't there, because then there is a disconnect. Wow. We started with a definition of mastery, and we've ended with a definition- … of mastery. And I'm just thinking then, just as a final thought, Cecilia what would you like to say that maybe we've not covered, or anything you'd like to offer those who are listening about this wonderful, mysterious mastery? You're always a master It's there. And the question is the form it will take And if you're willing to do the journey Wow. They feel like beautiful, wise words to perhaps press pause on for now. I know I could talk to you for much, much longer. Agreed. But, Agreed … maybe we can have a part two at some point. I would love that. We'll see how it goes. And and thank you so much, Tracy, for having me and allowing me to express some of these things. It's hard. It's difficult to express some of this. Thank you for the opportunity- Yeah … to do so with you and explore it. Oh, thank you. I've, I love this conversation. And like you said at the beginning, we can't always give labels to this, we're so driven by language, aren't we, and literal literal communication as human beings, and yet sometimes things go beyond words. Yes … so yeah, here's to the babbling brook. Here's to the babbling brook. Thank you so much, Cecilia. Thank you. You have been listening to Coaching in Conversation: The Mastery Series, a podcast that takes a look at mastery in coaching, what it is, what that means, how do we nurture or cultivate it, and many other interesting questions. You can hear more about coaching education and development at tracysinclair.com, and follow us on social media. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a rating and a review, and also share it with your network to help us expand our reach. Thank you for listening, and see you next time