My name is Tracey Sinclair. Welcome to Coaching in Conversation This conversation is a chance to discuss and explore not just how we can keep developing and maturing as coach practitioners, but also to consider how coaching is evolving, and its future potential and place as a powerful vehicle for human development in today's and tomorrow's world. I'll be sharing some of my own thoughts on these topics, and we will also hear from some great guests from around the world who bring their unique experience and perspectives. Hi, everyone. It's Tracy Sinclair here with another episode of Coaching in Conversation. This time I am talking with a wonderful coach, colleague and friend of mine, Gillian Gabriel, who is a PCC coach and also a coaching supervisor, and we are talking about something that is very special to us. But a little bit about Gillian first. Not only is she a great coach and supervisor with a lot of experience, she also has a very, very strong background in HR, particularly in learning and development with a long corporate career in senior positions in organizations like John Lewis and also since becoming an independent coach practitioner, she has worked with multiple organizations both as a coach but also as offering supervision services to organizations as well as individuals and also supporting the training and delivery of coach training, coach education, whether it's to develop professional coaches and also for developing leaders in terms of their coaching capacity within their organization. So the topic that Gillian and I are really focusing on today is something around that inner growth that we as coaches, and not just as coaches but we as human beings may have the opportunity to do, the desire to do, and perhaps the need to do as well. So I really hope that you enjoy this episode, which is called Soul Seasons: The Evolution of the Inner Self. Thank you for listening Okay. Gillian, it's really wonderful to have an opportunity to talk to you about something that is very close to our hearts and is something that is so close to our hearts that we have decided to create something together that we want to offer to coaches. However, today is not to talk about that offering particularly, 'cause this podcast is not a sales podcast. It's more about talking to people about what the concept is and why that's, why we feel that's important perhaps and- How we would encourage coaches, whether they work with us around that or not, to encourage coaches to really think about this aspect. I know that makes sense to you because we've been discussing it, but is there anything you want to add to my, what might be a bit of a cryptic description? No, just that it's, I think it's really important, as I think will probably come out in our conversation today, I'm sure. Okay. All right. We know that the way we have described the work that we're inviting people to do is called Soul Seasons, and we'll maybe come back to that. But the subtitle if you like, of this, the subtext, is the Evolution of the Inner Self. So maybe let's talk a little bit, shall we, about what we think that is, first of all. So what, what does that conjure up for you when you've been engaging with me on that? I think for me, the sort of first thing that comes to mind is it just talks to where I find myself in life right now slap bang in the middle of the evolution of my inner self. And I think there's some key words in there, which are evolution, inner, and self. For me, they're the key ones. And I think e- evolution… it's funny though, because the word revolution just pops into my head, but evolution because for me, it's I'm on a, a bit of a journey at the moment of evolving into what I'm thinking of as my true self. And I think that was always there, but then I bumped into the reality of the world and life and culture and society and expectations. But now I find myself, I don't know if it's just the stage of life or something like that, but I'm definitely going through a phase where there's an e- there's an evolution or an evolution happening. There's an emerging, there's a something different coming out of what's been, but also feels a bit like a returning to somewhere I've known before. And I think inner and self points exactly to the place that I am evolving into or returning to because it is really about, for me, Self with a capital S, as opposed to myself, one word, little letters, because it's about that kind of original who I am and who I was meant to be when I came into being in this world. So it's an evolution of that. It's the growing of that, the developing of that, the emerging of that, the returning to that. Yeah. I guess in some ways I want to say ditto which might be a very unhelpful response. But, there is something here for me about the fact that just because we are coaches who, and, perhaps m- many if not most of the people listening to this are coaches but I think this also applies not just to coaches, it could apply to leaders or to anyone who is in a role that is deeply in service of other people, that just because our work is focused on others, it doesn't mean to say that we don't need to look after and grow ourselves. And I- for me, that comes with both a right and a responsibility. I guess the, the right is, I should be able to focus on my own self. My work is not so in service of someone else that it's to the detriment of my growth. And for me, there's something here about my growth as a practitioner doesn't sh- shouldn't have to be limited to my professional growth. Which I think, in, in, in coaches and many other profes- coaching and many other professions, we're always focused on professional development, aren't we? And for me, this is personal development in service of professional development But also personal development in service of us, because like our clients, we also go through life's transitions and its challenges and things like that. And I'm just very mindful that there comes a point when adding more value or being more in service of someone in your work is not about you having more skill b- because it ceases to be the doing, and it becomes the being. That, and that for me was always the really attractive part of what we're talking about here is who… That quote that we've included I think in some of our writing about this, of who we are is how we coach, and so this is about who we are, not the how we coach bit, because we're doing lots of that, aren't we? All of us a lot of the time. Yeah. And I think, I just think that's so important. I like what you just said there about right and responsibility, and I had this sort of image of like a gold coin that kinda just came to me as I was listening to you. With one side of the coin being our right to develop ourselves, and the other side being our responsibility to do that. And although this isn't, it isn't about the skill side of coaching and perfecting that, I still, I think it's still connected to that, because I think if we're focusing in on ourselves and we're, we take that responsibility, I think it's a, I think it's a big responsibility, but I think it's also a privileged responsibility for us to have to- To really think about how we can be best in service of others by doing our own work first, or our own work alongside. But I think to not think of our own inner work and the things that we need to work through personally and individually, I think it's almost careless actually. And in itself it's a little bit unprofessional. I think I know this is a, a belief that you and I share, how as coaches we think it's a bit mad that other coaches don't have a coach, that's not just part of their ongoing development. And I think that's just so important. We have this right to think about ourselves, not just to be in service at the expense of ourselves to others and to take care of ourselves in that way in our growth and let us be and become all that we're meant to be, as well as a, a responsibility, an obligation, a duty of sorts, to make sure we're doing that work so we're in the best place to be in service of our clients and those that we work with. And actually, not even just those that we work with, but those that we interact with in life- Yeah … it's about showing up as our best selves, I think. Yeah. Yeah, and it's that bit that I really love about this actually, is that, this, this kind of on one level has a container around something that is p- a personal growth opportunity for coaches, whereas actually it's a personal growth opportunity for anybody, isn't it, really? Because w- as a parent we're in service of our children, as a partner we're in service of our partner, and, as a friend we're in service of our friendships. It's, so it's not it's not just about a, a ring fence of this is for my work at, with my clients, although it could be, but this is als- also about being the best that we can be. And I guess the bit that's coming up for me now is something that I'm really zooming in on. It's just this wave of societal culture that we have now which is all about optimization, progress, achievement, performance more, faster and more, and better, and doing more. This constant pressure to do more, but there's nothing in that about how am I being. And if nothing else, the thing that really comes to me is just this very obvious situation that we have in the world where there are record levels of loneliness, record levels of disengagement in organizations, and then also record levels of stress and burnout. So what is all of this more, more doing to us? It's taken us away from ourselves. And and what I noticed about what you've just said is all of that is very external to us, isn't it? It's all the stuff out here that's happening and the, I guess the, the culture that u- us human beings are creating. But we're human beings, we're not human doings, and that's when what you and I have been talking about comes into it, because this is about the inner. It's not about all that external pressure and expectation and desire to go faster and all about performance. It's about coming back to natural us in our true essence and our best selves. To be human beings, being human. Not being machines, not being robots, not working every single hour of every single day. That's not a life. It's not the life I want to have. And I, a- and me neither, by the way. But it's also something that, for me, is… this doesn't come from a place for me of, oh, I just think it's a good idea and so do you happen to think it's a good idea. I'm seeing this a lot in my coaching work and my supervision work and the training. I- in almost every aspect of my professional life, I'm seeing people struggle- … with pace, with expectation, with lack of gap, lack of reflection, lack of pause, lack of presence, lack of attention In, and so this more, more is creating less, less on the other side of that coin, isn't it, maybe that's a different coin. There's lots of coin potential in here. So there's something here about how can we… if I get really geeky here and I link this to ICF competencies and competency two, which is about, looking after our own physical, mental, and psychological wellbeing, obviously from a competency perspective so that we can be in service of others from a professional point of view, but also from a personal point of view, it's that kind of oxygen mask, own oxygen o- mask on first, isn't it? And that change starts within. Yeah. Yeah, it's not a nice-to-do, it's essential. It's absolutely essential, just as oxygen is essential for us to breathe. I know when we first started to talk about this, I think we might have spoken about it, it almost felt like some kind of mental spa. Yeah. Something yeah, something supportive, soothing, comforting, but also challenging. What do you think the… Maybe that's a good point here. What do you think are the challenges that we face when we do this in work? Gosh. That's funny, 'cause you know me and my metaphors. When I was listening to you then and the spa idea, I'd forgotten that we'd spoken about that actually, but we didn't we? About a sort of like a mental spa, a spa for our insides, hence the retreat kind of idea. So it's like this coming back inward to be able to function outward, and not just function outward actually, but to, and not just to survive outfor- outward, which I think is a lot of what's happening if you think about some of what you were describing. I think it's about that thriving outward. So it is about that retreating back in to, to recoup, reimagine, revisit, reconnect, to be able to be able to function in this kind of world that we seem to be walking about in and that we seem to have created. It's interesting, I'm just thinking of a lady that I was training last week actually, who is a teacher on a program that I was running, coaching skills within schools. And o- one of the real big shifts and insights that she had at the end of this module was just how learning about coaching had reconnected her with her own values. And it and she was already really realizing the benefit of this, not just as a skill that she learns to use with others, but how it reminded her of her own values and how she does or does not want to work and be. Which of course we often know, don't we, on coach training that you get a bonus program, which is your own personal growth as well as learning a professional skill. And I suppose in a way, this is about coming back to that, isn't it? Is to coming back inside from all of this outside work that we do with other people, and actually reconnecting with those values, reconnecting with that sense of purpose and our own why, so that we can honor that And realign, recalibrate, reconnect with that Yeah. And the, the word reconnect that you used really stood out for me then, because I think those things are there. Our values and our purpose and why we're here walking about this earth, they're- those things are here. But so often, too often, if I think about clients that I've worked with we seem to have lost that somewhere along the way, as if we've I don't know, carelessly misplaced it or something. I don't quite know what's happened. I think, I suppose it's everything else that's taken over, isn't it? And we lose sight of that, and so then we- we're often not then living life aligned to that. And we're not necessarily conscious that's what's happening for us, except that something doesn't feel right, or something feels unsettled, or something feels like it doesn't seem to fit anymore. But when we come back to understanding and knowing what we're about in the first place, what matters to us, what's actually really important, and what making a difference would actually mean to us and look like, then it's a light bulb pops back on, I think. And that, this is something I've experienced myself but also witnessed, have the privilege of witnessing in others that I work with. And this light bulb comes back on and then everything makes more sense. The discombobulation is understandable because no wonder, and we realize how far we have or haven't set adrift from those things that are actually important to us at our heart. And with that, not the things that we think should be important or the things that are regarded as being highly important, but the things that truly are. The things that we might not otherwise see. So for example Of course, family is important to me, but I'm gonna be bold enough and brave enough to say it doesn't feature in my top five values. In my top five values I've got learning spirituality, creativity, connection, and empowerment. They're my top five, and there's a part of me that feels like it should say things like family or saving the planet or whatever. And it's not that these things aren't important, and they may well be yours or someone else's number one, and that's fantastic for them. But I think it's just really important to really come back to them for us, for the real us. What are our own values and the things that matter to us most of all? The things that give us that spark and that joy and that lift in our step that make us just feel connected, back to that word, connected with ourselves, and then in turn connected with others and connected with the world, and connected with the work that we do, whatever that work is. So I think that it's just so important to get under the skin, to get to the heart of what that really truly is about for us And I guess, this isn't easy, is it? As you're describing it, even though I know that we've, we're doing a lot of th- talking and thinking and developing something around this, and we're both very actively involved in our own work, our own growth this is not easy work, is it? It… And it's therefore, it's very easy to not do it, and to just focus on something or someone else. And one of the things that we also know is that many people who are in professions that are deeply in service of others do often not take so much care of themselves. Yeah. It's quite a pattern, whether it's in, doctors and medics, carers, all sorts of people, therapists, all sorts of people, including coaches at times because it's often about the client, whereas actually what we're saying here is it's not always about the client, it's also about you as the instrument of the work. And I always think of that quote and it's from one of my two favorite psychologists, either Rogers or Jung, and I always get the two mixed up, but one of them, hopefully, said, "We're all born princes, and life turns us into frogs." Yeah. So we already know this, that quote goes back. That's pre-AI and pre-COVID and pre all sorts of things. We know that the process of life bends us. It pulls us, it bends us, it pushes us, and we can be pulled out of shape. So imagine if that was true however many years ago that quote was first uttered, and you look at where the world is today, that pulling and pushing and bending out of shape is probably more powerful than it's ever been before. And so how do we stay grounded? It's very easy, isn't it, to get pulled away from what roots you to yourself, to your sense of, I know who I am, I know what I'm doing, and be that tree almost that can weather a storm that's blowing you around when all the leaves are falling off, but you know that you're still rooted and grounded. That for me is something that's so important with this, which I guess is why we've chosen a tree, thinking about it for our little symbol for this. Because there is something about helping people to find their own grounding within themselves to deal with the complexities of a world that is beyond what any of us have been used to. So the- for me, this is so much more important now than it probably ever has been. Yeah. Yeah. I think you're right. It- it's not easy. This- it is hard work, and it can push us and test us and stretch us, and we can feel fear come up and resistance, and find it really challenging. But I think all of those things are good signs. Good signs that we're actually doing the work that we need to do in the first place. And I think, you're right. We- It's like I said earlier we're out of shape a bit because of the shoulds and the expectations and the norms and whatever that we're surrounded by. So we lose our original shape. But if we don't pay attention to this, I think, back to the tree, there's a danger that unlike the tree that bends in the storms and the winds and the rough times, that we could break. And I think, you also touched on something else the selflessness of people in the sort of profession that we are in and similar professions. That cobbler's children thing, the last ones to have the good shoes, but actually I think we need to have the good shoes first. I think we need to take care of our shoes alongside the work that we do.'Cause otherwise we're not going to be the best version of us, and we're not… and we're going to be out of shape, and then we're not going to be able to be as naturally and easily in service to walk alongside those that we get to walk alongside. So I think it, it's so essential and it's so important. And then because of the world and the way things are, I think it's, it is harder than ever. I think it is harder than ever. But it's not impossible. If it's something that somebody really wants to do, then you can. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. It's not impossible at all. It's just that we feel that it is because it's hard, isn't it? And we know that sometimes facing some of these things in partnership with someone else, like coaching, is what can help, isn't it? And I guess that's part of- What's needed for this is an opportunity, I think, that coaches need, like anybody does, is where are those pockets of space with people where you can truly be yourself without the masks? You know I've got a thing about masks. W- where, where can you truly take all of those masks off? Because in the same way that m- many of us, perhaps not all, the naturists of the world might be all right with this, but many of us would not feel very comfortable walking down the high street with no clothes on. Yeah. Because we would feel very naked, very exposed, very vulnerable. And yet we don't only put clothes masks on, we put psychological masks on, don't we? We perform in certain ways. We have our coach's head, or our friend's head, or whatever it might be, our presentation head, our pod- our podcast voice. I don't… whatever those things are. Where do we ever have that space where we can literally just drop them? And the reason I say that is from my own personal experience, and I think and hope that this will resonate with other people, is I know that for me, some of the masks that I've built o- over myself over years and years, I've… I came to a point where I didn't even realize they were masks. Because I thought they were me. And in some ways you could argue that, yeah, they are me because I've made them a part of me, but they weren't there at the beginning. And some of them are helpful, but some of them aren't. And I think this is where the safety bit is so important that people can find some kind of space where it is as safe could be to… and as welcoming and as accepting and embracing as if we were i- in a naked sauna or something or on a naturist be- naturist beach, where you can just be. And that is great. To just be. And I know that I have found times in my life when I've thought, "I don't know where I can do that.""I don't know if there's anywhere that I can do that." And that to me doesn't feel right. It's very… this is my my aspiration to be this, as you all know, but it's very vulnerable, brave and daring work to do. It's very vulnerable, brave and daring to take the masks off and to- To see, to recognize, to admit, to let be our natural who we are, but not even that, to just, to work out that in the first place. So I think being safe is such an important thing, and, who do you feel safe with, and what is it about that space or place or person or whatever that makes you feel that way? How do you know that it's safe? We talk about psychological safety and creating safety and trust and support in our wor- our world of coaching and our work that we do, and I just think, it's just, it's so vital and it's so rare, but when it's there, it's something to hold dearly and close to your heart and to make the most of. So I don't know, I, I'd encourage people who are listening perhaps to even just take a moment to think about who, where, how is your safe space? Who, where, how is your safe people? Where can you be that little bit more vulnerable, brave, and daring? I know when I when I'm coaching and when I talk about confidentiality with my clients, I talk about saying to them that I hope they'll be able to be a little less filtered in the space with me than perhaps they find themselves being in different aspects of their lives. And there's just something about it that always just seems to click and make sense with the, with my clients and the people that I'm speak- I don't have to explain it. They know ex- they know exactly what I mean and what I'm talking about without us having to discuss it. Yeah. So yeah, I think, that's so important because it c- you can feel naked. You can feel as if you're naked and ex- I guess exposed in that way. Yeah. Revealed, uncovered. And we don't go around being naked with just anybody, do we? Indeed. No. Some people might but th- that's another podcast. Yeah. That's the adult version. A grown-up someday. So just maybe carrying on a little bit with the theme of what you were just talking there about you, about inviting people to think about how they can have these places, times, of safety and space. W- what else would you be inviting coaches to think about? Given what we've been discussing, what else would you be inviting them to think about or consider as part of this evolution of the inner self? How do we start this? Gosh, that's a very big question, isn't it? The beginning for me is wanting to do it. Genuinely, truly wanting to do it. Of wanting something different for yourself, wanting something more I'm not sure. I think I need to give that one a little bit more thought. Maybe if I share then it's… For me, there was a wanting, but there's also something about a recognition that something is just not quite right or missing or- Yeah … and I know that I started to say something when I… and when I first heard myself say it, I thought, "That sounds like a really odd thing to say," but I found my- so this is a few years back now. I found myself starting to say,"Oh, gosh, I feel really outside of myself" And disconnected with myself. I just used to feel like I wasn't in me- Yeah… sometimes. And that got to a point where I felt like I wasn't in me a lot. And then it felt too much, and I was actually talking to someone this morning who was, who's going through an experience w- who… And she was saying, "I think the question that's really coming up for me is, who am I?" A- And I think that, and I know for myself personally there, there was a time back when this kind of process started for me where I started to question I don't know who I am anymore. I'd look in the mirror and I'd I remember looking and trying to look really deeply into my eyes and trying to find myself. Thinking where are you? And am I still the person that I thought I would be? And w- am I the person that I was when I was 20? And is that okay? I- have I changed? Did I need to change? Is it good that I've changed?" And there's these kinds of… But for me it was that sense of, do you know what, I'm not quite sure that I'm in my own self here. I felt as though I'd got to a point of being a different shape, to a point of losing recognition and connection with actually who I really was. And I'd become very good at certain personas like, like we all do. We're very good at building these ways of being, aren't we? And yet, who is at the core? What's the core that's still there? That essence of you, perhaps, is the word. Yeah. The thing I remember hearing myself say was who am I becoming?" And that just had 10 dots after it, and a bit of a void because I didn't know the answer to that, but I knew it wasn't who I was and who I had been. And at that point when I first said that, I didn't understand what I understand now given the inner work that I have been doing since then. But that was just tho- those moments where you end up almost, you say something and then you kinda stand outside of yourself looking at yourself noticing that you've just said something and you're like, whoa, I didn't even know that was something that you were thinking or feeling until now, and now I really do know and relate to and resonate with. That is definitely something you were thinking and feeling. And I think my other sign was- I was talking a lot about the different parts of me. So I'd say, there's one part that this, there's another part that, there's this part. And I started to notice in my own language me referring to parts of me, but these parts of me felt disconnected and scattered and a bit all over the place, and almost running a little bit wild at times, running the show. And in time with inner work that I was doing, I realized… I started to wonder where's the self in all of that? Where's my self in all of that? I don't hear her. I don't notice them. I've got these parts running riot, and I don't know who I am and who I'm becoming. Yeah. And I think it's… So that's, so back to your question a moment, a little bit ago. I think the beginning is the noticing. What is going on for you? How are you feeling in relation to you? How are you feeling in relation to yourself? How are you feeling in relation to the person that you believed yourself to be, or the person that you hoped you would be, or the person that you want to be? Yeah. So noticing where… It's a little bit like your mirror thing. Where do you not recognize yourself anymore? Where are you maybe just going through the motions? What does your discombobulation look like? What does your disconnection look like? Yeah. Yeah. And it's so interesting that as you talk, and I'm sure some of our listeners will be aware, this touches into so many different forms of psychology and growth models around parts, and the different parts of ourselves, and self, and the concept of self, big self, little self, and all of those things that are perhaps beyond, a little bit beyond the personal, almost to that transpersonal level of not just what's going on inside me, but what actually is, who am I in this world? So they're these bigger questions, aren't they? And I know that you mentioned right at the beginning something about, you don't, you didn't know if this was because of one being at a certain stage of life. And of course, we do know that quite often there is a trend that as someone gets older, that this shift, this questioning, and this way of considering, and searching, and asking questions can happen to us. I guess the piece I want to offer up here is we don't have to wait until we're older to question these things , or to be curious about these things because I don't think this is an old person's journey necessarily. It's just that it seems to take us this long sometimes to realize that it's, this is something we need to look at. So I know for myself that if I'd had the kind of wherewithal or the capacity when I was in my 30s or 40s to explore some of the things that I am actively exploring now, I think that would've been probably very good for me. And I'm not, I don't have any regrets at all about that. But, for anyone who is in their 30s or 40s and are thinking, "What on earth are they talking about?" There's this can start earlier than waiting for those more troublesome things to come. We could approach this proactively with curiosity rather than something's not right, and then we look at it. Yeah, and I think curiosity is the key word there, is to be curious. Because I didn't just go through… i'm 53 now, and I didn't just go through these sort of, they feel like five-year waves for me if I kinda go back and back. But I think, there was similar things of this sort of unsettledness in me and something not feeling right when I was in my 30s, easily then. And I prob- at the time, I didn't, this was pre yeah, pre me being in the world of coaching that I'm in now and pre me knowing and understanding the things that I know and understand now. So I didn't really have anything to help me understand what was going on or what I made of it, so I would put it down to other things. But I al- I also remember reaching a point where I actually was pretty low, and I, at the time was diagnosed with anxiety and mild depression. And That's where, that's probably the beginning point of me really starting to get into all of this stuff, and then really getting into my inner work. Because it started off with me having a kind of focus on looking after my own mental health, because I thought that's what it was only about. And then I came across a book by an author called Jo- Johann Hari, and I am trying to… There it is. Lost Connections is the name of the book. And it is actually an alternative explanation, especially in relation to depression, but also touches on anxiety. But it, when I read that and read about what he describes as the lost connections, they weren't about what's chem- chemically going on in your brain, they were about these other things that, some of these things that you and I have spoken about today. Disconnection with your purpose, disconnection with your values, disconnection with others and people and relationships. And it was… you read these books every and you have these complete light bulb moments because it resonates for you so completely. And it was the, at that time, that book for me was a lifesaver and a, a turning point. And this, this is quite some time ago now, because that was the beginning of me understanding it was about so much more. It wasn't that there was actually something medically wrong with me. There was something bigger amiss with me. And yeah, it was, it was the beginning of starting to understand that and to understand what is me. Yeah. Who am I? What matters to me? What am I actually about? So at the time, I was thinking about that in service of what I was thinking of as my m- mental health and my mental wellbeing. So every cloud, that got me onto that track of thinking about that. But actually, it was about so much more. Much more. I'm aware, as always happens with these amazing conversations, that we could keep talking for another hour now. However, we do know that people's attention span for podcasts isn't necessarily always quite so long. But obviously if there's interest we can do another one. But… And as we know, we're not trying to we're not trying to advertise the piece of work that we're offering up to people, but I think it would just be nice to touch on the fact that we have called the work that we want to do Soul Seasons. And maybe it would just be nice to say a little bit about why that. Because just in a sense of how that links to the concept of what we've been talking about. So what, what would you… what meaning does that have for you, Soul Seasons? I think if we go back to this idea of, the evolution of the inner self and evolution, and how things are… We I don't know. I know at a certain point in my life I thought, here's the beginning, here's the end, and we go along the line. But I've learnt that it's not like that, and it's more like spirals and twirls and swirls and circles and constant changing, moving, transition. So I think that kind of idea, started to, emerge and make sense because there's the seasons, the actual seasons out in nature and how they change, but they also come back and repeat, and merge and flow into each other. And it feels, I don't know about you, but I can feel there's a season outside, like it's summer at the minute, but there can be a season inside me which can be quite different in a moment, in a day, several times a day, where I can find that. And then there's seasons of my life from a physical point of view. Being the age that I'm at now and being a woman, there's particular seasons of life that are happening for me there. So I think the seasons are a natural and beautiful, also metaphorical, but maybe spiritual and meaningful are words that also come to mind. The way of helping us connect with that evolution of our inner self, of that constant change and movement and flow and forward movement, which sometimes can feel like backwards movement, but it's still forward movement at the same time, weirdly or strangely enough. So seasons just felt, it just felt right. It felt like what I am personally experiencing, and it's felt like a really, I don't know, beautiful and useful way for others to go on their journey of the evolution of their inner self and to reconnect back to their soul. Reconnect back to their soul and that original true essence of who they are and who they were always meant to be. So hand in hand with Mother Nature and all the gorgeous gifts that she has to give us, it just made complete sense and felt right, and there was a sort of instinct in the gut as well that Soul Seasons are where, are the way to go. To sort, take that journey. And of course, it doesn't end. It doesn't really begin, and it doesn't really end, 'cause which season came first? Not one does. Which- Exactly… comes last, not one does. It's a continuous, and we are a continuous work in progress and evolution. So let's meet ourselves, whichever season we find ourselves now, internally, externally, physically, mentally, emotionally, all of it, spiritually, and let's go forward from there. Yeah. I can't disagree with any of the things that you've said. As we know we talk a lot about this and the bit that I would add is is this idea of how important metaphor is to this process, which is something I'm studying into a little bit at the moment beyond what we a- we teach in coaching around metaphors. But just this deeply rooted practice of storytelling and metaphor that a- again, it feels in our more modern times we have a s- a more of a disconnection to story. Yeah. Or we are writing different stories, but are those, are they helpful stories? We have this classic thing, isn't it is what is your s- what story are you telling about yourself or life? And, there is a real decline perhaps in some of the more traditional storytelling that used to be part of the fabric of society around folklore and myths and legends and fairy tales and and also that disconnection that perhap- there perhaps there is. Not for everyone, thankfully, but a disconnection with the elements, a disconnection with nature. And the one thing I would say to start this process, which I know always helps me, is to go outside, ideally first thing in the morning or last thing at night, take your socks and shoes off and stand on the grass or the ground, and just breathe. Even if it's just for two or three minutes, and feel that ground under your feet, because that is you. You are the ground. And the ground is you and to feel that connection with it, and that's one of the reasons that I love the idea of soul seasons. Yeah. Me too. Anything else that you'd like to share, Gillian, before we pause for now? Just that it can be hard work and tough work to do our inner work, but it can also be the biggest gift that we can give ourselves and to give others. So wrap the ball, let's begin. Yeah. Let's begin indeed. And on that note, thank you so much, and I do hope that people listening have enjoyed this and take some kind of inspiration for how they're gonna start this work or continue with it. Yeah. Yeah, 'cause it's nonstop. Indeed. Indeed. Some would say nonstop until we take our last breath, and then others might say it doesn't even stop then. But then that's also another podcast. Have a feel on that, but it is another podcast for another day. Yeah, so we've got a podcast on naturism. Naturism in coaching, there's one. And coaching beyond human life or something like… or incarnation, reincarnation. Okay, we'll see when we can timetable those. Need to Google now whether there's any naturist coaches out there. I'm now incu- I'm now curious about that. You never know. You never know. All right then we'll pause for now. Thanks so much, Gillian. I really enjoyed that. Me too. Thank you. You have been listening to Coaching in Conversation by Tracy Sinclair, a podcast aimed at exploring how coaching is a vehicle for human development in today's and tomorrow's world. You can learn more about coach training and development at tracysinclair.com and follow us on social media. If you enjoyed this podcast, please leave a rating and review, and also share it with your networks to help us expand our reach. Thank you for listening, and see you next time