Hello, my name is Tracy Sinclair, and welcome to Coaching in Conversation, the Mastery Series concept of mastery in coaching, and I have the great pleasure of talking with several ICF Master Certified coaches from around the world to understand what mastery really means to them, both as coaching practitioners and also as human beings. We explore many different perspectives and nuances of this topic, and I hope it is of use and interest to you as you continue to navigate your own pathway of development Hey, everyone. It's Tracy Sinclair here again with another episode of Coaching in Conversation. This episode is part of our mastery series, and I have the great pleasure of talking with a wonderful coach and colleague, Jackie Haywood. Jackie is a master certified coach. She is also a transformational leadership coach for which she has won awards. She is a mentor coach, a supervisor, and has many certifications and licenses in support of the work that she does. She works with both individuals and teams, and she works both here in the UK and also enjoys working with clients from all over the world. So this conversation today, which I hope you'll enjoy immensely, is called Prepared and Not Prepared in Equal Measure. Enjoy. Ah, so Jackie, I know we were just talking before we clicked record how we're looking forward to this. I know I am. And we're here to talk about this lovely, mysterious word of mastery-… And primarily perhaps in the context to be necessarily in the context of coaching, 'cause this word is used in all sorts of different ways, isn't it? So- Yeah… let's just start with you kicking for you, the concept of mastery? Yeah. Thank you, Tracy. And I was so looking forward to today because as I was saying to you just a moment ago every time I try to process mastery out loud, I learn something new about what I'm thinking about it. So this is almost hot off the press as I start to reflect, which may be a signal about how I feel about mastery. Which is there's something about mastery that is prepared and not prepared in equal measure. Oh, interesting. I think there's a whole piece about learning your trade, having deep knowledge about it, practicing it, falling over with it, in fact. In fa- in fact, many of my pivotal moments in coaching and outside of the coaching room have been metaphorically speaking when I've fallen over. Might be a piece of feedback from a mentor coach, it might be that I didn't think some coaching went so well, it might be that I've been challenged around my thinking. And actually, a lot of it is how do we use those moments? How do we use those moments to let go of control? And I've been a, a really good one at keeping the control piece, but actually once I started to let go of the control, that's when mastery started to open up a bit more. Do you know, it's so funny that you say that because literally just before our conversation I was talking to someone about this difference between feeling a little bit contained and rigid and structured around something very technical, and then just relinquishing control and totally relaxing and letting it flow. Yeah. So there's just something… It's just fascinating that I've literally just had that conversation, and now you're mirroring that same principle. It is. And it's interesting, isn't it, how there seems to be a journey towards deep expertise which takes us on that core competencies, different frameworks, reading lots, absorbing lots, studying lots, which I've also done and I really endorse and enjoy. And yet there's almost a paradox because you've got that piece, but then you've also got lightness, humor, let go with the flow of the client, let go of the model, let go of the framework. So I was also recently holding this concept of paradox in that one without the other isn't mastery, and yet the two together maybe combine to be really powerful. And actually, that's the first time I've said that. So I think there's something in that. And maybe that is what makes it so challenging in a way is the paradox. And to that point, just to signpost, I had a lovely mastery series conversation some while ago now with a dear friend and coach in in Malaysia, Heru, who, a- and that one is called The Paradoxes of Coaching, in a way, because like you, we- h- he was highlighting how we have to hold both. And I suppose maybe that's where it becomes difficult because we very much go into this either/or, don't we? Ei- either I have to be technical and follow a process and, be… follow competencies or whatever, or I can be artistic and go with the flow. So how do you do that, do you think? How do you hold both What a great question. I think you have to … I can only speak for me. I think I had to learn a lot to get comfortable that I understood what I was doing, and I think that continues. So the other thing around the mindset is I'm never done. In fact, the more I learn, the more I study, the more I see the gap or I see the opportunity. So I think there is something about and this was interesting recently, it came to my mind that I do believe we're experts in the coaching process. I will hold my hat up there. I think we have to have expertise in the coaching process to be able to hold it effectively. I think the thing we muddy the water with is starting to think we need to be expert in the client, or expert in their topic, or expert in the solution. And that, for me, was a real turning point when I realized I could let go of the idea that I've got to know your stuff, and I've got to remember every word, and I've got to think about the themes, and I've got to. And then just go, "Actually, let me just ask you how are we doing? Where have we got to in our conversation," which is contracting. And that is our expertise. So I'm starting to get really animated now, but I think there is something in that expertise that sits really well with the lightness of holding the space for the client- To feel relaxed enough to go where they need to go. And it I could see that you were feeling animated about that. So what, what is animating about it? What difference is that making? One, I think that's where the magic happens because you allow or enable the other person to feel lighter about their insights Two, I think I've… It's probably because I've experienced it. So I'm a real believer that if you're gonna do coaching well, you need to be a good coachee yourself. And I definitely experienced the push of a coach, the push of a coach to action, the push of a coach to tell me what they think is, contr- almost controlling the environment too much. And I'm sure, I've no doubt I've done that myself over the years for sure Whereas what makes the difference is that lightness of the partnership allows you as the coachee to experiment, to say what you're really thinking, to not go to a solution where you don't have one. So rather than "Oh, yeah, I've got somewhere. Let me tick that box," it allows you to go actually I'm not any clearer from our 20 minutes together yet." And I feel that's a real credit to the coach when that happens. Certainly when that happens for me, I find that a real awkward, joyful, courageous moment in equal measure. Yeah. Yeah. Which to me strikes me as the true partnership. We're both of us as the coach and the client, we're both doing the work, aren't we, together? Although obviously the ownership sits with them. But I was just thinking what you were saying there, a couple of points really resonated with me. One is this idea of we learn to be a coach through being coached. And I have to say, not that I like to have judgments or opinions too much about these things, but I do find it very unfortunate when coaches don't get coached after their coach training. What makes us think that this is just something we do for other people? It feels so one way, that, that part of it. So I think there's something in that. And that linked with something else that you said around, about the learning. We would be better to be passionate about learning than achieving in a way. Oh, that's nice. That, that sense of I've got to get an outcome for my client, I've got to be a perfect coach. It's a, like a performance mode, isn't it? Whereas, do we learn something just so that we can get a certificate at the end of it to say we know it? Or do we learn it because we enjoy learning? Really, it's really powerful. And sparring off of that word learning, one of the things as I was prepping my thoughts for today was learning and insights versus action. I was thinking to myself, what would I say to somebody were the pivotal things that made the difference for me going towards mastery? And I wrote down one of them was reframing the word action, which I guess is the achieving thing. And I think early on in my coach journey, I didn't understand that concept, and I'm not gonna put that to the training school or I think it was just literally my evolution of understanding of it. And more recently I've understood our job is to be a catalyst for learning and to be a catalyst for insight, which in itself has an action-orientated part of it. And I think that speaks really well to what you said about learning rather than rather than achieving. Are you th- are you also thinking, Tracy, that… You've got me thinking about how do we measure success as a coach? And is it in that learning space rather than the achieving space? Yeah. And I think to me, that is one of the toughest parts as we're talking about it. Because if you think about almost any other way of life, especially in the modern world, and especially perhaps even more in the Western world is performance and achieving and adding value, being an expert or, adding value through what we know and all of those things, performance is just such a… It's so embedded, isn't it? We talk about a performance culture. And I notice as I'm g- getting older, I don't know about getting older and wiser, but getting older, where I'm just thinking, is that what it is? Is is the whole of our purpose in life to keep performing? Because I don't know that's… that doesn't sit so well with me anymore. I think there's something more about, if you're performing, it's almost about I have to be better than I am now, or i- yeah. I don't know. Maybe I'm going off at a bit of a tangent, but I just think e- I even still experience coaches who even on say MCC, and I know I was exactly the same, so it's not, I don't take myself out of that. It's that performance nerves when you're recording for your credential submissions or whatever. So even though we know all of this stuff, it's still a very default place to go, isn't it? To try to perform. Yes. And yet the minute… And that's the paradox, isn't it? Because the minute you try to perform it's gone It s- it so is and I was thinking about performing, where does the coachee go other than to watch your performance? Oh. Because a performance is… A performance in my world is to be watched. You sit and you watch the performance, and I think that does play out in conversation. You let the person perform. So I love the idea of moving from performance to partnership, of course. I love the word partnership, 'cause it brings up so much, doesn't it, around how we want to be in that relationship And maybe it's … Maybe this is really highlighting as well some of these cliches that we tend to just throw around in coaching, like partnering, co-creating, letting the client do the work, et cetera, et cetera. It's our lexicon, isn't it? Yeah. Our coaching vocabulary. And yet, quite often we're not actually really doing it. We're talking about it, but when it comes to really surrendering and partnering, or really relinquishing that control and that need to know and … Then it … that's not as easy, is it? So it's a lot harder to do than it is to say. Oh, totally agree. For example, I think it come … A good example for me is when you ask somebody where we're at and they say, "I'm a bit lost. I don- I don't feel I've got anywhere so far." And what do you do in that moment? And I think I've shifted from, "Oh, okay, you don't know what you've got from it. Let me prove to you we've done some good work, and let me summarize and let me share some learnings that I think you might like to take from our 20 minutes together," into a place of, yeah what do we need to do now we know that?" And holding the silence. So I was just k- I guess just sharing an example of where I see that as a really different space to hold yourself more It, for me, I can only speak for me, it's more, takes more courage. It takes more explicit work at the moment for me to remember, ah, this is a moment just to not fix or not try and show I'm performing, and there's many of those in coaching, I think. I think so. I think that's, that is something, I don't know if it's how s- how similar this is in therapy. I'm not so sure it is, because it's not quite so much of a partnership perhaps. But is I just don't know that there are many professions that ask that of someone. Maybe that is what makes it so special, and then also sometimes so challenging. That got me into thinking about, I don't know why, but it got me into thinking about embodies the coaching mindset, which is obviously one of the ICF core competencies and Yes, okay, we know we need supervision, we know mentor coaching is really important. But I wonder what your thoughts are on expanding that. Because that, again, when I was thinking about mastery, I think I realized or recognized I needed more in the tank at different moments of my coaching development. So it might be new hobbies. It certainly has been for me. It might be… So for example, I do aerobics, and half the time, Tracy, I have no idea what's coming next. We learn these routines, and then I spin off one direction, and I need to go another. The teacher himself is so amazing when it all goes wrong. He just lightly moves on. And the way he handles with composure this sense of messing up is really inspirational. So I suppose, in summary, embodies the coaching mindset gets me into what are some of the other things, beyond the usuals, that can be a catalyst for who you are outside of the room, coaching room, just as much as what you're doing within it? Yeah. That, what you're talking about there, Jackie, really speaks to my heart because I think that there's so much in coaching that is about us learning a skill to get good at something that we do with other people. And there comes a point where you can only progress from that s- that, that boundary if you grow yourself as a human being in ways that are maybe nothing to do with coaching. Possibly with coaching, like we've said, by being coach. But this is about the who of the coach, isn't it? Who you are. And you've just described phenomenal learning about presence and being okay with, im- the perfect imperfection and from an aerobics class. And one might say what's that got to do with coaching?" It's got everything to do with it, clearly. So I think there is something about we, we have to grow ourselves as human beings, our own self-awareness, and that learning comes from life, doesn't it? It comes from so many different sources. But if we don't stop growing for ourselves personally, how can we continue to grow professionally? Not in this business, not in coaching, I don't think we can. I think there comes a point where your own growth, personal growth will create a ceiling if you don't break through it Ma- and that's, yeah, that's really profound in terms of the ceiling. I'd not thought of it that way, and I think the word, we were talking before about the word mastery sounds, it sounds so, oh, what's the word I'd use? I don't wanna say superior, but it does sound a bit up there, out there, you've made it. The word itself, I think I wrote something recently that I'm not very comfortable with the word, because the, there's different words that come up for me in mastery like simplicity and courage and a humility and an ongoing learning journey. I could keep going. There's other words that perhaps describe mastery rather than reaching the end of the learning. You always said to me and I hope it's okay to share this, but you always said to me when you got to mastery, that's when you realized there was more. I don't know if you wanna say more, but there was something around that really stuck with me, and I thought, "I wonder what will happen when I get there." And it's been really, it's been a really similar journey in that when you, when I got the MCC, then more unlocked- Yeah … of, oh, there's more here. Yeah, no, absolutely. I absolutely stand by that for me. I'm assuming that I did a level of growth to get to that point to, to secure my MCC. However, the amount of learning that opened up after that was incredible, and it's been wonderful. It's just been- immense sort of creative growth in all sorts of ways that are, on the surface of it not coaching related, and yet they absolutely are. So that's that. I love that idea of that's where the, that's where the learning starts. It doesn't end. It starts Yeah. Yeah. So what do you think for you, knowing yourself as you do, what do you think for you was the, the toughest part of your own growth to break through, to this, this mastery, if you like, way of- masterful way of working? That's a really great question. I think there was something about resilience because I… There were many moments where there wasn't enough of this or I needed a bit more of that in terms of my feedback on recordings and feedback to myself as well. So it wasn't as if, "Oh, job done. Mastery's appeared. Off we go." It was much more, "Tweak this. What about that? Have you thought about that?" So I would say one of the key lessons for me was to want something enough to stick with it, and there's parallels in my life in other areas about wanting something enough to stick with that. So I always thought I wasn't good with feedback. I actually think I'm gonna reframe that. I think I'm much better with feedback than I give myself credit for, 'cause I really enjoy… maybe enjoy is the wrong word. I really value that tweaking and insights that you can't only get from yourself. So that was, that's challenging. The other one, the second one I would say, is contracting. Almost even a couple of weeks before my exams for MCC and recordings and so on, I was still challenging, do I really understand contracting? And I was asking what- If you ask the rest of the world, I think. Asking what I would call quite basic questions, going, "This question, how will we know it, how will we know, can we unpick it again and work out?" So I think also there was something challenging for me about contracting that through the depths I've really come out the… bounced out the other side and gone, "Oh, I get it now. I get it enough now to make it my own." And I think I could have a number, but I think the third one I would call out is the control piece and the challenging piece. So I've had the fortune to work with so many different people across the world now, and continue to, and they really challenge me. It's not a walk in the park, and I really like that about it. So I would say I'm better at leaning into the discomfort than I w- used to be, and I found that challenging at the time. Wow. Yeah. So that's lovely, isn't it? Because I think when we recognize what it is that's hard for us and that doesn't mean that it, we can't do it or that we're not good enough because we feel that thing that's difficult, it's that, it's working through it, isn't it? That's what I'm hearing you say, is having that commitment or determination or whatever it might be to keep learning. And I think the other part is, I'd call it eldersh- eldership or role models or inspiration or catalysts. And I remember really early on, I'd love to hear your thoughts as well on this, but I remember really early on in my coach journey somebody saying to me,"You could be masterful." And this was really early on in my coaching career. And she just obviously popped it out there. She saw something, and it's, it genuinely s- it makes me shiver now. It stuck with me that she held that potential. She held my potential in her hand when she said those four words, and it stuck with me as a, "I wonder." And I never asked her what she meant or what she saw. We didn't get technical about it, but she believed there was something more. And I think that eldership, those role models, that catalyst-… For me, has a huge part, it continues I can't do it alone. I need to do it with others. What do you make of that? I agree. And I think the first thing that strikes me about what you've said is how that mirrors coaching as well, in that, although we're not rescuing or parenting our clients, we are supporting them, aren't we? We are, to an extent, believing in them. We believe they're creative, resourceful and whole, and that kind of thing. And so I know when I've been coached there's a particular coach that I work with quite a lot, and he will often say to me, and it's always just at the time when I need to hear it, and it'll be something like, "I really believe you've got this, Tracey" or, I really believe that you will make this happen," or whatever it is. And just hearing those words that someone shows some kind of belief in you, even if something feels like you're about to climb a mountain, knowing that someone else is in your corner or believes in your potential is incredibly uplifting, isn't it? And that's what we want to offer our clients, isn't it is that, that belief. And so that eldership or role modeling of people in our community, that's maybe what they're also doing for us. That we're supporting people to come, to come through and have that belief in them. I love that, and it got me also thinking more broadly about what others' gifts are to the world or to you. And I see… You got me thinking about some of my friendships. I see more and more people's sort of unique gift or talent that I really appreciate. It might be a sense of their patience, it might be a humorous moment, it could be an act of kindness. And it could be what I call the ugly stuff. So somebody getting really impatient and cross and then dealing with it and coming out the other side. So it's not just all the good stuff, but more and more I take some of that and somehow embody part of who they are into who I am. I don't know what I'm trying to say there. But there, there's something about appreciating the uniqueness of others and seeing that. And it's not just in the coaching space. It might be in leaders, it might be in your friends, it might be in teachers-… in your community around you. And you just think, how cool is that you're being in that certain way? Yeah. I think that's beautiful when that happens. To me, that's where… I have a, a belief that coaching isn't just a, a profession or a skill set, it's also a set of values. There, there are lots of values, and I'm not necessarily referring to specifically to the ICF core values, I'm talking about values that are embedded within in the competencies. That we don't talk about them as values, we talk about them as competencies, but there's something in there about respect for each other not taking up too much space, allowing other people to fully express themselves, being curious, being sincere, being honest, challenging in service of what's useful for that person. If you think about applying those val- if the competencies were values and you lived your life in accordance with some of those values, I'd, I do believe the world would be in a slightly different place What a lo- I had never thought of it that way. What a lovely way to go back over the core competencies and see the values within them. Because there are, aren't there? If you think about establishes and maintains agreements, there is a value there about I trust you to know where we want to go today. Trusting each other, trusting yourself. Not having to control all the time, not always having to know. This is just something… I don't know. I think there's just a, a little bit of a, a manifesto for how to live life in a way. Maybe I'm being a bit too ev- evangelical there. But I think to your point it… where I, where that was taking me was the fact that coaching isn't just in a box called coaching. This thing that we do with people that happens to be called coaching is something that, that could inform all, all aspects, any aspect of our life, whether it's raising our children, how we are as a friend or a partner, how we engage in the baker's when we're buying a loaf of bread or whatever it is. It's how does it infuse you and how you go about your life perhaps. You've got me thinking about some of the leader as coach programs that I've been fortunate to be facilitating and be part of. And I s- I definitely see that there, where many of the leaders take a, a kind of ripple effect and recount stories of, "Gosh, I'm showing up differently in other aspects. I'm holding space more. I'm being more curious. I used to jump in and solutionize and at home I'm just showing up differently." Yeah. So how, moving forwards then, and I'm not … I don't mean this as a, a qualification related question. Now that you have your MCC. But more that now that you are where you are and you are who you are as a coach where is your work going now? In terms of the work on me? Either. Either Whichever question you feels the good, the right one to answer. The work on … it's interesting I went to the work on me. The work on me has taken me into therapy, which I've had for quite a while now, counseling and therapy. And what I'm really enjoying there is recognizing the patterns that might be reoccurring in my relationships. I'm taking … Actually, we've got to a point where we're taking a really strategic view on what are the patterns reoccurring in the relationships? How do they show up? What are some of the tools and frameworks and models? So I'm really fortunate with my almost supervisor in the counseling space to have that, that vehicle. So that's really an enjoyable and valuable aspect to my professional coaching work, to see the patterns that might be playing out. I said in De- I think it was in December when I got the MCC, I said, "This year I'm not … No more programs. I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna crack on with my work and just enjoy." And then, of course, I realized my enjoyment comes from studying. I love studying. I love doing things. So I'm doing a bit more on mentor coaching and … So I am doing some programs to put into my learning as well. But actually my work with individuals and teams is just taking off in a different direction more organically, which I'm finding really fascinating. It's more c- I don't want to say more coming to me, but it's just, it is role modeling or the parallel to the learning journey I'm on. Interesting. Interesting. What, … Let, let me just check my understanding here, 'cause what I've interpreted from what you've just said based on some of the things you've said before is there's something about you being different now, and therefore the work is coming to you rather than you- Maybe just selling yourself, your services- … if that makes sense. I don't know. Am I… Is that- am I off the mark there or? It's a good clarification, Tracy, and that's, as we're processing it, yes, that is what I'm saying. There's much more fluidity to how I'm showing up and then what's appearing in the work and in the people I'm working with. There's a more natural connection in the work appearing, and it has been s- previous to MCC as well, and I think that is testament to the getting more comfortable with what you're offering, getting more comfortable with what the work is in coaching. I feel much more comfortable about the type of coaching I do, which I was thinking about is much more about deep curiosity on… I've written here, deep curiosity on who the person is becoming in relation to their topic and their relationship with the topic. And I've got a deep curiosity about that when somebody starts to work with me. I love your play on language there. With the topic and in relation to the topic, and just those slight… i'm just very geeky when it comes to words and languages. Just that slight reframe of the wording suddenly brings up something so different, which is lovely. So le- let's imagine, which I hope they are, that people are listening to this who perhaps, would aspire to, to working for their MCC at some point. And even if they're not, just to, ideally really just want to grow and develop and be the best that they can be. So what, what would you want to share with them from your own learning, that you might be the elder, if you like- … and offer a nugget of wisdom, what might that be? The most profound thing for me is your own awareness of who you are in any given phase of your life, 'cause I believe it changes season by season. So whilst we can go, "Oh, okay, job done. Lovely. Got my lessons for now," I don't think that's enough. My experience has been season by season. It's definitely an ongoing process of evolving and understanding who you are And what- however you do that, that to me is the work. And that's what excites me in the work that we do in the coaching space. Because what we're often doing is providing a space for people to explode and amplify their sense of who they are in relation to that point in their life, or in relation to that project, or in relation to their boss, or… It's always in relation to the thing that they're bringing. But that amplification and expansion can come from aerobics, it could come from therapy, it could come from coaching, it could come from running. It- it's so exciting to me that wherever you start looking for it, if you're interested in it, your own awareness will appear with your curiosity. And that's not an easy thing, and can bring up all sorts of feelings and emotions, but that's the one that I think makes the biggest difference. Yeah, curiosity comes up over, and over again, doesn't it? But I think it's it doesn't just seem… there's the obvious thing about being curious about your client and what they're saying, rather than trying to control or perform or secure outcomes. But what I'm hearing you say there is a curiosity about ourselves and life. Curiosity about anything that's going on around us, because those learning opportunities are literally everywhere, aren't they? In what might be the most random of experiences, you could probably cross-reference that in some way to some kind of, I don't know, coaching principle or li- you know, life principles really of living, living life. Yeah, I agree. And I guess just adding on to that I call it my Achilles heel. Is there a vehicle to keep understanding that Achilles heel? What's showing up that is, is desperately trying to teach me something, which I'm closing the door on, and closing the door on, and then eventually go,"All right then, let's have a look. Come on then, let's have a look at it." And that might be that you keep solutionizing in coaching, or you're getting impatient at the baker's or with the shop assistant, or with something else. What is it that keeps reoccurring that is not easy to look at, but actually has a lot of gold within it? And that might sound very deep, but I think there's something that I'm leaning into around that. Yeah. What we resist persists. That's it Yeah. And yet it is like life knocking on your door, isn't it? So like saying, "Hey, hang on a minute, there's something I need you to know here," or- Yeah and yet we do try to ignore them, don't we? We're very good at being ostriches and not seeing what we don't want to see and things like that. And our intuition, whilst can be a strength to others, and we often hear people say, "Oh, if only I took my own advice or took my own space that I give others, if only I did that more for me." Yeah. And I think that, that comes in there as well. Yeah. That takes us back to this idea of working on ourselves then as well, doesn't it? It's not about us just offering s- a service to other people. It's first look within, as they say. Yeah. I'm mindful as ever, always say this at the end of these, the conversations. I enjoy them so much, and we just go off round, around and about on a lovely walk. What… Is there anything that we've not talked about or anything that you have in your mind around this topic before we pause that you'd like to share? You may not like it, but it's an acknowledgement from me to you because one of the things that And that's why I say you may not like it, but it's one of the things that made the difference as I was studying mastery, which was your series. I'm obviously grateful to be here today talking to you about mastery, but those that have come before me really taught me some valuable lessons. So listening to the podcast, listening to different people's perspectives on mastery has been a huge amplification and catalyst for my learning. And I wanted to mention that'cause I know at the beginning you said, "Oh, I don't know if you've heard a couple of the podcasts on dot," and I was thinking, "Yeah. Yeah, I've listened to those already, Tracy." So a thank you and an acknowledgement from me to you of what you've done in the coaching profession and continue to do, and podcast is one of them for me. Thank you. Thank you so much. I love the podcast because I also learn so much, of course. It's never, ever one way, is it? But- No… there have been some It's wonderful to hear those stories and the different gifts or pieces of wisdom that people are bringing in. And I'm sure people will pick up some of that from listening to you today, so thank you so much, Jackie. Thank you as well. It's been an absolute joy. Really enjoyed it. Thank you. You have been listening to Coaching in Conversation: The Mastery Series, a podcast that takes a look at mastery in coaching, what it is, what that means, how do we nurture or cultivate it, and many other interesting questions. You can hear more about coaching education and development at tracysinclair.com and follow us on social media. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a rating and a review and also share it with your network to help us expand our reach. Thank you for listening, and see you next time.